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[00:05] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTfcO
[00:05] <Scummette> scummvm/master 770d8b0 sev-: NDS: Fix compilation
[00:05] <Scummette> scummvm/master 8912311 sev-: GRIM: Fix compilation on some systems
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[00:10] <thimbleweed> Now that scummvm is gradually opening the mindset, with the supporting of RPGs, 3D games and the llike... why not allowing cyx and others to merge their Flashback/Another World/Bermuda Syndrome/Heart of Darkness collection of games into scummvm? They are closer to graphical adventures that historical platforms given the puzzles and the graphics,
[00:10] <thimbleweed> they are like a genre in their own (maybe 5-10 games in total), and they are mostly reimplemented already on github..
[00:14] <thimbleweed> Even prince of persias would fit
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[00:15] <Lightkey> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EimaD9IWoAAstbo.jpg Absolutely.
[00:16] <Deledrius> LOL
[00:16] <Deledrius> thimbleweed, that'd be great :D
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[00:18] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTfCw
[00:18] <Scummette> scummvm/master bc4a1ae sev-: 3DS: Fix compilation
[00:30] <grogbot> <Gantonio865> > <thimbleweed> Now that scummvm is gradually opening the mindset, with the supporting of RPGs, 3D games and the llike... why not allowing cyx and others to merge their Flashback/Another World/Bermuda Syndrome/Heart of Darkness collection of games into scummvm? They are closer to graphical adventures that historical platforms given the puzzles and the graphics, @Grogbot i guess the ppl in the IRC are kinda seriously smart
[00:30] <grogbot> <Gantonio865> Now that i want to be dev
[00:33] <grogbot> <SupSuper> @Henke37 i checked and indeed, escape from monkey island will build if you add --enable-mpeg2 as it is off by default
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[00:48] <grogbot> <Henke37> is there a reason why it's disabled by default?
[00:56] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 89123110: Success: master-ios, master-wii, master-n64
[00:59] <grogbot> <SupSuper> probably because it's only needed by one engine. but it should be available in the latest scummvm_libs
[01:00] <grogbot> <Henke37> no build errors yet, so far so good
[01:10] <grogbot> <Henke37> it even starts correctly. now to see if it can detect the game...
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[01:15] <grogbot> <Henke37> well, it detects it, but it looks like i need to copy over the files.
[01:22] <grogbot> <Henke37> oh dear. seems like my copy is missing a key file. local.m4b i hope it's not actually used.
[01:25] <grogbot> <Henke37> found it. sneaky thing was stashed in another folder
[01:26] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 89123110: Success: master-dingux, master-gamecube, master-gcw0
[01:29] <grogbot> <Henke37> goodie, it crashes the instant i press a button.
[01:30] <grogbot> <Henke37> > Run-Time Check Failure #3 - The variable 'yyval' is being used without being initialized.
[01:31] <grogbot> <SupSuper> that'll teach you to play a bad game
[01:31] <grogbot> <Henke37> it's in engines/grim/lua/lstx.cpp:1417
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[02:10] <grogbot> <Gantonio865> And the wiki is still kinda outdated too
[02:11] <grogbot> <Gantonio865> I guess that escape from monkey island and other former residual titles articles there need to be updated
[02:15] <Deledrius> SupSuper: lol
[02:40] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with bc4a1aed: Success: master-3ds
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[05:22] <Scummette> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTf6V
[05:22] <Scummette> scummvm/master 2a393c8 dreammaster: XEEN: Tweak Clouds intro to be more like original
[05:23] <Scummette> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commits to branch-2-2: https://git.io/JTf6i
[05:23] <Scummette> scummvm/branch-2-2 96afb01 dreammaster: XEEN: Tweak Clouds intro to be more like original
[06:12] <Scummette> [scummvm] mduggan pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTfMU
[06:20] <grogbot> <madmoose> I would love to see Another World back in. It caused quite a fight back in the day and then Eric Chahi asked to have it removed because he was releasing a special edition. Cyx would have to be okay with it, though.
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[08:28] <Scummette> scummvm/master 79e2b0c mduggan: CREATE_PROJECT: Add override keyword to remove build warnings
[08:28] <Scummette> scummvm/master e3a8524 mduggan: MACOSX: Remove unused variable
[08:28] <Scummette> scummvm/master c71ac47 mduggan: TTS: Fix compiler warning
[08:28] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTfNX
[08:28] <Scummette> scummvm/master 7374738 sev-: DC: Fix compilation
[08:28] <Scummette> scummvm/master b661b7e sev-: COMMON: Attempt to fix DC build
[08:50] <L0ngcat> Anyone know what happened to Strangerke? I see he has not been online since August ..
[08:50] <grogbot> <rootfather> Last time I talked to him he was very busy with real life
[08:51] <L0ngcat> I see. I'm not surprised. Thanks for the quick answer
[09:05] <eriktorbjorn> Well, Grim Fandango and MI4 seem to run after the merge, but Wintermute complains that it can't create a 3D renderer when I try J.U.L.I.A. (Not bothering to try Myst 3 and The Longest Journey, since the engine maintainer has asked them to be excluded from the merger.)
[09:26] <grogbot> <trembyle> Would they still be maintained on the residualvm fork?
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[09:53] <grogbot> <LuciferSam> Congrats for the merge. :)
[09:58] <Scummette> [scummvm] ScummVM-Translations pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJJ1
[09:58] <Scummette> scummvm/master e3be179 lotharsm: I18N: Update translation (German)
[09:58] <Scummette> [scummvm] ScummVM-Translations pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJJy
[09:58] <Scummette> scummvm/master d3dc168 goodoldgeorge: I18N: Update translation (Hungarian)
[09:58] <Scummette> scummvm/master 441fd82 : I18N: Update translation (Portuguese (Brazil))
[09:58] <Scummette> scummvm/master 06bba93 antoniou79: I18N: Update translation (Greek)
[10:03] <Scummette> [scummvm] lotharsm pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJUB
[10:03] <Scummette> scummvm/master 344a179 lotharsm: I18N: Rebuild translations.dat
[10:06] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJUP
[10:06] <Scummette> scummvm/master ef7039c aquadran: CONFIGURE: Remove orphaned _opengles v1 feature
[10:20] <Lightkey> Another major change that was only discussed on Discord, leaving out the most active ResidualVM developer of the last few years, who clearly disagrees. While I welcome the merger myself, how many more times does this need to happen?
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[10:43] <bgK> @tremblye, I will keep working on the engines in a separate project as I have no control over ResidualVM
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[11:01] <Scummette> [scummvm] lotharsm pushed 4 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJt4
[11:01] <Scummette> scummvm/master 3bdaa49 lotharsm: GRIM: Fix typo in the keymapper actions
[11:01] <Scummette> scummvm/master 5ca3d9b lotharsm: NEWS: Update German NEWS file
[11:01] <Scummette> scummvm/master e197118 lotharsm: GRIM: Fix typo in the keymapper actions (again)
[11:03] <Scummette> [scummvm] ScummVM-Translations pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJta
[11:03] <Scummette> scummvm/master d619d30 tag2015: I18N: Update translation (Italian)
[11:32] <Scummette> [scummvm] lotharsm pushed 1 new commits to branch-2-2: https://git.io/JTJYu
[11:32] <Scummette> scummvm/branch-2-2 629f3c6 lotharsm: NEWS: Update German NEWS file
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[11:44] <_sev> Lightkey: what you say has nothing to do with the reality
[11:46] <_sev> Lightkey: The request to remove the engines came very last minute, when there was over a month worth of work on the merger.
[11:47] <_sev> Lightkey: the earlier statements were that the development will be continued aside, which is the Bastien's decision
[11:48] <_sev> Lightkey: the decision of the ResidualVM project leads was to merge. There was substantial effort to convince Bastien to continue work in-tree, but we are volunteers and cannot force
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[11:55] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJ3w
[11:55] <Scummette> scummvm/master e20bddb aquadran: BACKENDS: Attempt to fix PSP and SWITCH ports. Use proper class cast
[12:10] <bgK> This is ScummVM's own procedure for engine inclusion: https://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php?title=HOWTO-Engine_Inclusion
[12:10] <bgK> Notice how it mentions a one week delay between the mailing list announcement and the merge. How it requires the use of a pull request to allow open discussion?
[12:10] <bgK> Notice in the wiki history how mentions of IRC were silently replaced by Discord a month ago?
[12:12] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJGJ
[12:12] <Scummette> scummvm/master 264f6f0 aquadran: ALL: Separate USE_OPENGL and USE_OPENG_GAME. Exclude WME3D for GLES2 for now.
[12:13] <_sev> bgK: that procedure is long long obsolete
[12:13] <_sev> it was created when we had the Core Team
[12:14] <_sev> and the IRC links were updated everywhere, there is no conspiracy
[12:14] <Scummette> [scummvm] lotharsm pushed 2 new commits to branch-2-2: https://git.io/JTJGZ
[12:14] <Scummette> scummvm/branch-2-2 8627aa5 lotharsm: BUILD: Add option to exclude additional resources from the binary
[12:14] <Scummette> scummvm/branch-2-2 5836a76 lotharsm: DISTS: Add BUILTIN_RESOURCES define to create_project
[12:15] <_sev> moreover, this procedure is for the new engines and new authors, not applicable here. There is never was a procedure for the mergers. All mergers in the past were in a very similar fashion due to the size of the task
[12:15] <_sev> in this particular case PR was not possible at all. As you well know, we kept whole project history.
[12:16] <_sev> and both teams, you included, were well aware about the merger, several weeks before it happened
[12:18] <bgK> It would still have been nice to open a PR of the merged state, then do the repository migration. And to allow more time to pass between the announcement and the merge.
[12:19] <Scummette> [scummvm] antoniou79 pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJGX
[12:19] <Scummette> scummvm/master 583c04e antoniou79: ANDROID: Replace deprecated methods and fix some Code analyze warnings
[12:20] <_sev> bgK: we couldn't do it: the team wanted whole project history to stay, fo easier bisecting
[12:20] <bgK> At no point it was made clear to me the projects were to merge in a few weeks time. There were rumors about a merge for years. I didn't think we were beyond that point until the -devel annoucement.
[12:20] <_sev> I personally understand your desire to work separately and not being dependent on the large project
[12:20] <Scummette> [scummvm] antoniou79 pushed 1 new commits to branch-2-2: https://git.io/JTJG7
[12:20] <Scummette> scummvm/branch-2-2 5e3dda7 antoniou79: ANDROID: Replace deprecated methods and fix some Code analyze warnings
[12:21] <_sev> We all have different approaches, and we've discussed number of times your frustration about strong dependency from our codebase
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[12:22] <_sev> but more people saw actual benefits for the mergers, and I've discussed it with you
[12:22] <_sev> and aquadran did, and I believe, somaen
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[12:25] <bgK> does that make it right to merge the myst3 and stark engines despite my explicit request not to do so?
[12:25] <_sev> as we've discussed, you are more than welcome to continue in-tree, but if you want to fork, this is also your decision, and it is respected
[12:25] <bgK> then please respect my decision to remove the myst3 and stark engines from ScummVM?
[12:25] <_sev> your request to not merge was never faced earlier. What you were mentioned, that you will continue outside. It came as a surprise after hard work on the merge was already finished
[12:27] <bgK> I'm sorry I was not precise enough. I definitely would have been had I known work was underway.
[12:28] <_sev> could you please elaborate a bit, why are you requesting this to be removed?
[12:31] <bgK> I want to keep working on the engines in a separate project. I would like to avoid users being confused and miss the changes made since the fork from ResidualVM.
[12:32] <_sev> what is the harm in offering people more than a single option? You can work and improve separately as you wish
[12:34] <somaen> From our end, the major argument for merging, was more visibility to end users, being part of a larger and more well known project.
[12:35] <somaen> Which in turn has the potential for better testing, and thus higher quality.
[12:35] <bgK> the harm is people encountering bugs that have been fixed in the more up-to-date version and being frustrated.
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[12:39] <bgK> to be fair, I really don't think my request to remove the code needs any justification. It's simple decency to comply.
[12:41] <somaen> To be frank; are you the sole author of those engines?
[12:44] <_sev> Bastien, projects in Open Source do fork, it is not something unique. We are not forcing you to continue work in ScummVM tree. And the development activity on the engines from your side was quite low.
[12:45] <_sev> You are always welcome to come and bring your future patches, or continue development right away. Or if you would like to close source your future changes in your fork, it is always up to you
[12:45] <_sev> Your work is very well respected and it is a pity of seeing that you do not feel compatible with ScummVM, but that is life
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[12:48] <_sev> correction: I am referring about development activity in the last months, not in general of course
[12:49] <Deledrius> To be honest, any discussion of the logistics of the situation (forking/merging/etc.) seems to be missing the fact that it feels like something else is really the root cause of this problem. I'm not privy to what it is, but it looks like this is not truly a sudden disagreement.
[12:50] <_sev> Deledrius: you have a point. It is not clear to anyone yet, why Bastien feels this way. There is something deep inside, which could be very difficult to share
[12:50] <bgK> somaen: There have been contributions to the engines over the years. However if one was to examine the amount of changes I did and the total lines of code I wrote in the current version, they would likely find both metrics to be above 90%.
[12:51] <_sev> and of course, lack of body language, tone, etc makes it very challenging to express ourselves
[12:51] <bgK> _sev: yes, projects do fork, that's indeed the reality. However they do not include other people's code against their wishes.
[12:52] <_sev> bgK: that is not a quite right statement. ScummVM has 609 forks on GitHub, nobody was asking our permission. And people do release different scummvm builds with modifications and without them
[12:53] <_sev> ResidualVM has 120 forks. Did you grant your permission to them?
[12:53] <aquadran> there plenty project which share code, split, and can coexisting. from my point of view, you want to control where code is placed.
[12:53] <_sev> but the answer is yes: you did.
[12:53] <_sev> that's the spirit of GPL
[12:53] <grogbot> <Henke37> according to the GPL, he did indeed
[12:55] <Deledrius> And yet, ScummVM has a general policy about respecting the wishes of developers of active engines and not simply absorbing them. Or so I've read.
[12:55] <DrMcCoy> This is not an argument about licenses and legality, this is argument about decency, morality and cooperation. While the GPL allows it, you generally don't want "hostile" forks, for civility's sake
[12:55] <Deledrius> Indeed.
[12:56] <_sev> The wish of the project leads was to merge, and other people in the ResidualVM team. Only bgK was not fond of it
[12:56] <Deledrius> Also, the discussion happening after the merge puts bgK at a disadvantage, with "the work aleady being done".
[12:57] <grogbot> <Henke37> and from what little i've seen, i haven't seen a concrete reason why not.
[12:57] <_sev> Deledrius: that is plainly not true
[12:57] <_sev> he knew, and he never was talking about removing his work
[12:57] <_sev> there was number of statements that he will continue work outside of the tree
[12:57] <Deledrius> _sev, I'm sorry, I must have missed it then. I subscribe to the devel mailing list and check #scummvm and #residualvm daily
[12:58] <DrMcCoy> _sev: I guess the question then is if you're okay with bgK being angry and frustrated, probably going out of this discussion with a negative opinion on the projects and people. Is that an okay casualty for you?
[12:58] <Deledrius> That's my primary concern here.
[13:00] <DrMcCoy> I was also quite surprise about the merge, the announcement on the mailling list right before commencement was the first time I heard about it. But I'm also not monitoring project internals as closely anymore, especially with that opaque move to Discord
[13:00] <Deledrius> Same here.
[13:01] <grogbot> <Henke37> you guys are welcome to join us on discord
[13:01] <DrMcCoy> Frankly, I'd rather drown myself, but that's neither here nor there :P
[13:04] <_sev> I wish, situation was better than this. But it is not my sole decision.
[13:04] <aquadran> I'm ok with full merge with all engines, regardless bgk wishes
[13:04] <_sev> I expected some degree of frustration, anger? no.
[13:06] <aquadran> not everyone has to agree
[13:10] <aquadran> if you not agree, you can fork/splip, this is how it works
[13:10] <bgK> I will survive regardless of the outcome. What about the image of the project? Is it fine if ScummVM is known to incorporate code against the author wishes? Will that help attract new contibutors? Will it not cause existing contributors question whether they should continue giving their free time to such a project?
[13:10] <grogbot> <bluegr> As mentioned earlier, projects are forked all the time. Having a dev pull out his/her work is a bit of a mess. Imagine if that happened to other projects: e.g. a frustrated developer of MySQL , who wanted to pull out all of his work when it was transferred to Oracle. That's why the MariaDB fork was created
[13:11] <DrMcCoy> As for my personal opinion, I like the merge in general, but I find the whole process was handled maximally terrible. And in my opinion, going against an engine's main dev wish here is a very shitty move by you, _sev and aquadran, but you're already aware of my views on your style of "leadership", so I'll keep it short
[13:11] <DrMcCoy> It's not like I have any pull anyway, I haven't contributed for like 10 years or so
[13:12] <aquadran> why you still here then?
[13:12] <_sev> DrMcCoy: thanks for sharing your opinion. We will try to be better
[13:14] <_sev> DrMcCoy: for the sake of complete information, the discussions about the merger were performed for almost 2 years, in more details for the last like 5-6 months and for the last month the work was actively performed
[13:14] <_sev> DrMcCoy: thus, your statement is not grounded on actual state of affairs
[13:15] <_sev> but nevertheless, you have a point, we always could do better
[13:15] <_sev> especially it is easy to assess my looking back in time
[13:15] <_sev> s/my/by/
[13:16] <grogbot> <Henke37> i feel like i missed all the conversations.
[13:16] <_sev> bgK: there is no need to "survive". You are always welcome. Do not burn the bridges
[13:17] <_sev> Henke37: you're not part of the team, simple as that. There were discussions _in_ the team
[13:17] <_sev> in both teams, actually
[13:17] <bgK> _sev: I don't feel like I'm the one burning the bridges here.
[13:17] <aquadran> yes, if you can do better in you fork, then prove it
[13:17] <Deledrius> :(
[13:18] <DrMcCoy> uff.
[13:19] <grogbot> <Henke37> honestly, i still fail to see the problem. sure, you dislike the process, but the actual result? i see no problem there.
[13:20] <_sev> Henke37: I am yet to fix dynamic plugins!
[13:20] <grogbot> <Henke37> quite expected since the big plugin pr was merged only last week
[13:21] <grogbot> <Henke37> of course the incoming engines didn't get the memo about that.
[13:22] <_sev> Henke37: actually, Aryan helped with porting them. It is just the linking problem against OpenGL which stay unresovled
[13:23] <grogbot> <Henke37> i suppose that's good news.
[13:23] <_sev> yes
[13:24] <somaen> My understanding was that there was a wish to continue development in a separate fork for myst3/stark. As I see it that is not incompatible with merging the engines into ScummVM as well.
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[13:31] <somaen> So, while it's sad that this cant happen in a way that makes everyone happy, I did consider these things when agreeing to the merge.
[13:32] <aquadran> me too
[13:32] <somaen> There are very real benefits to this merge, otherwise we wouldnt have done it.
[13:32] <TMM> My 2cts are that I think this is much better for users. Residual doesn't have the same recognition as ScummVM does, and it doesn't make sense for users to install two applications that look and feel the same, one of them can play like 400+ games and the other can play 5. The distinction of the 2d/3d stuff is probably lost on most users
[13:32] <somaen> precisely what TMM said was my reasoning
[13:32] <Deledrius> The merge itself is absolutely a good idea in itself.
[13:33] <Deledrius> I was very happy to hear it (and surprised since it came out of nowhere after years of murmurs).
[13:34] <_sev> Deledrius: to put the final conclusion: The merge itself was not a surprise to either of the teams. The actual surprise was the last minute e-mail from bgK. We assessed it and decided to proceed nevertheless
[13:34] <grogbot> <Henke37> the big benefit i see is less duplication of shared code that will diverge over time
[13:34] <TMM> And technically I'd assume that if we want to support 3d wintermute then this is basically the only option anyway.
[13:35] <Deledrius> _sev, you keep saying that, and I understand that there were private discussions. That doesn't make it not a surprise to everyone outside of that. ;)
[13:35] <_sev> and it is a pity to see that. And I am sorry, Bastien of spoiling your mood.
[13:35] <_sev> Deledrius: not private. In both teams
[13:35] <_sev> You are not part of the team, you do not even see those channels
[13:35] <DrMcCoy> That's private.
[13:36] <grogbot> <Henke37> i have to agree, that's private.
[13:36] <_sev> well, your definition of private differs from mine then. But that's okay
[13:36] <Deledrius> Yes, clearly it does. :p
[13:36] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Restricted to the interested parties
[13:37] <_sev> by the parties involved in the process, yes
[13:38] <grogbot> <antoniou79> I am really happy about the merger btw. Pending resolution of a few issues the code base feels stronger
[13:38] <DrMcCoy> And I guess the plans were publically on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard"
[13:38] <Deledrius> lol
[13:39] <somaen> I was under the assumption that there would be a separate fork, and thus two places where these engines continued existence. its suboptimal that this seems to have caused bad blood. However, Im convinced that its technicaly
[13:39] <somaen> the optimal way forward for end users
[13:40] <Deledrius> Indeed. My first thought is that it makes things much simpler for the end users who can barely tell the difference between DOSBox and ScummVM
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[13:41] <grogbot> <Henke37> less apps to install on their mobile device too!
[13:41] <Deledrius> While it's always made sense to me because I know the beginnings of the project, it's often hard to convey why Residual exists to certain types of users.
[13:42] <somaen> Projects need maintenance to be viable, and theres a higher chance of that happening as part of a bigger project like ScummVM.
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[13:43] <Deledrius> That's long been the benefit, which is why the FreeSCI merge was so exciting.
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[13:44] <somaen> Better long term viability, better visibility, more ports.
[13:44] <somaen> So yes, there was a large chunk of stuff on the "pros" side of the argument
[13:44] <grogbot> <thoth> I mean the real complication that comes to mind for me as an end user is that now you're in a situation where either the base requirements to run ScummVM rise or some engines are only supported on certain platforms. But that might already be true...
[13:45] <somaen> it is already true for GlK iirc
[13:45] <somaen> also WMe
[13:45] <Deledrius> somaen, honestly I doubt anyone here needs to be convinced of the pros, we're fans of the project after all :)
[13:46] <grogbot> <thoth> Well, then. Not a huge deal.
[13:46] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Eh, that is not a bad compromise
[13:46] <grogbot> <Henke37> i don't see how the base requirements have risen.
[13:46] <grogbot> <thoth> the whole point of residual, IIRC, was to cordon off games that require 3D acceleration in order to run.
[13:47] <grogbot> <thoth> But I wasn't around at the time so that could be wrong.
[13:47] <grogbot> <Henke37> just detect the game and say "sorry, this port can't do it."
[13:47] <grogbot> <thoth> Yeah that's what I was saying the alternative was. It seems SVM does that already in some cases. I wasn't sure.
[13:47] <grogbot> <Henke37> SVM?
[13:48] <grogbot> <thoth> ScummVM.
[13:48] <grogbot> <Henke37> oh.
[13:48] <somaen> The downside was that aquadran had to manually merge from ScummVM to get new features
[13:48] <grogbot> <thoth> Ah
[13:48] <Deledrius> I don't envy the work that took
[13:48] <somaen> and that we had to argue for changes that only benefited residual
[13:48] <Deledrius> It's enough doing it in the same tree :p
[13:48] <somaen> Or maintain a diff
[13:48] <grogbot> <thoth> That had fo hurt.
[13:48] <grogbot> <thoth> *to
[13:49] <aquadran> also maintance site
[13:50] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Yeah tge merger should free up time and other resources for ResidualVM devs
[13:50] <grogbot> Command sent by thoth
[13:50] <grogbot> ...Come to think of it, does Residual abstract over 3D API? or does it assume GL?
[13:50] <somaen> Neither
[13:51] <somaen> Each game engine is responsible for implementing renderers
[13:51] <somaen> typically OpenGL, GLES and TinyGL for software fallback
[13:52] <grogbot> <thoth> Aha.
[13:52] <grogbot> <Henke37> that sounds... suboptimal.
[13:52] <Deledrius> 3D's a bit more complicated to abstract away :/
[13:52] <grogbot> <thoth> In theory, but I imagine the rendering requirements for each game differ (at least hypothetically) enough that trying to abstract over that would just mean reimplementing OpenGL.
[13:53] <grogbot> <Henke37> flash managed to do it.
[13:53] <grogbot> <thoth> Poorly.
[13:53] Action: Deledrius shakes a fist at hardware manufacturers and Graphics API fragmentation
[13:53] <grogbot> <Henke37> i duno, from what i heard, noone complained about the stage3d api in flash.
[13:53] <grogbot> <Henke37> but i wasn't listening.
[13:54] <Deledrius> "noone complained about [...] flash" is a sentence configuration I'm unfamiliar with ;)
[13:55] <grogbot> <thoth> In the PC world, fragmentation isn't so bad. It's just GL and Vulkan (although GL is a kinda a hot mess in and of itself...). And then there's GLES (and Vulkan) on mobile... The really ugly part is console ports. Consoles do not like normal 3D APIs.
[13:56] <Deledrius> Assuming you ignore DX and Metal :(
[13:56] <grogbot> <Henke37> pretty sure that directx is still around.
[13:56] <Deledrius> (I'm sure Apple will replace Metal with something in another year)
[13:57] <grogbot> <Henke37> and nintendo likes to call their apis GX.
[13:57] <grogbot> <thoth> I ignore DX because I hear Intel's Vulkan drivers are decent now, which would mean that there isn't really any context in which you can use modern DX where you can't use Vulkan in the PC space.
[13:58] <Deledrius> I think that's generally the case, yeah
[13:59] <grogbot> <thoth> And MoltenVK seems to be the solution of choice for hitting OSX.
[13:59] <Deledrius> Alas, I'm quite behind on that these days
[13:59] <Deledrius> Is it mature?
[14:00] <grogbot> <Henke37> the last GX i heard about was on the Wii.
[14:00] <Deledrius> What does it stand for? GirectX?
[14:01] <grogbot> <thoth> MoltenVK is mature enough. IIRC it implements most of Vulkan 1.1, and it's running under the hood if you play DotA2 or whatever on Mac.
[14:02] <Deledrius> I don't play MOBAs, but that's a pretty hefty one to lean on it, so I guess that means it works :)
[14:02] <grogbot> <thoth> It was originally a commercial product but Valve paid the dev $$$$ to BSD it.
[14:02] <Deledrius> Sweet
[14:03] <Deledrius> Gotta love software liberation
[14:07] <grogbot> <somaen> There is also this thing called Discworld Noir
[14:07] <grogbot> <somaen> This wont make that... harder
[14:09] <TMM> Yeah, MoltenVM and MetalAngle work very well, we've been using them for Godot projects for customers
[14:10] <TMM> for 99.9% of the cases you can pretty much just forget you don't have GL or VK
[14:11] <TMM> for DX you can use Angle, the only gap is Sony's consoles really
[14:11] <TMM> Switch has a pretty good GLES3 implementation
[14:13] <Deledrius> <3 Godot
[14:18] <Scummette> [scummvm] ccawley2011 opened pull request #2502: BACKENDS: Move default implementations of getScreenPixelBuffer into BaseBackend (master...default-pixel-buffer) https://git.io/JTJzQ
[14:18] <grogbot> <thoth> What about 3DS?
[14:19] <TMM> I'm not familiar with the 3d apis of 3ds, someone probably did a tinygl implementation for it I imagine?
[14:21] <Scummette> [scummvm] rsn8887 pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJgY
[14:21] <Scummette> scummvm/master 28a1f72 rsn8887: BACKENDS: Fix reading window height in PSP2 events
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[14:27] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Can someone help me with this? Do I have to implement GetScreenPixelBuffer for PSP now? It wasn't needed before. ../../src-master/src/backends/platform/psp/psp_main.cpp: In function 'int main()': ../../src-master/src/backends/platform/psp/psp_main.cpp:177:29: error: invalid new-expression of abstract class type 'OSystem_PSP' g_system = new OSystem_PSP(); ^ In file included from
[14:27] <grogbot> ../../src-master/src/backends/platform/psp/psp_main.cpp:57:0: ../../src-master/src/backends/platform/psp/osys_psp.h:43:7: note: because the following virtual functions are pure within 'OSystem_PSP': class OSystem_PSP : public EventsBaseBackend, public PaletteManager { ^ In file included from ../../src-master/src/backends/platform/psp/psp_main.cpp:48:0: ../../src-master/src/common/system.h:910:32: note: virtual Graphics::PixelBuffer
[14:27] <grogbot> OSystem::getScreenPixelBuffer() virtual Graphics::PixelBuffer getScreenPixelBuffer() = 0; ^ make: *** [../../src-master/src/Makefile.common:155: backends/platform/psp/psp_main.o] Error 1 make: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs....
[14:27] Action: Deledrius loves playing games with ScummVM on his NDS Lite
[14:28] <grogbot> <aquadran> @rsn8887 you can stub method
[14:29] <grogbot> <Henke37> the NDS had a quirky 3ds renderer.
[14:35] <grogbot> <sev> @rsn8887 actually you do. Just copy/paste this: <git show 385d8ad997ee623a9209fc509c876b289aa32136>
[14:35] <grogbot> <aquadran> there is a recent change in repo
[14:35] <grogbot> <aquadran> https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/pull/2502/commits/54cc18c6be92b492ac31873f69b105deee558c88
[14:36] <grogbot> <sev> ah, you cleaned that up. sweet
[14:37] <grogbot> <aquadran> no me 🙂
[14:37] <grogbot> <aquadran> @ccawley2011 did
[14:39] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Ok
[14:40] <grogbot> <rsn8887> So, shall I change OSYSTEM_PSP class or not?
[14:41] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I looks like @ccawley2011 commit will fix PSP automatically
[14:42] <grogbot> <rsn8887> ?
[14:44] <grogbot> <aquadran> I think you should try
[14:49] <Scummette> [scummvm] rsn8887 pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJVN
[14:49] <Scummette> scummvm/master d0fd0f1 rsn8887: BACKENDS: Implement getScreenPixelBuffer() for PSP
[14:49] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Ok done
[14:56] <grogbot> <timofonic> Congratulations for the merge!
[14:57] <grogbot> <timofonic> About 3D: What about switching to bgfx?
[15:00] <grogbot> <aquadran> bgfx?
[15:03] <grogbot> <Henke37> for those wondering, it seems like the tiny gui bug got fixed.
[15:06] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 28a1f729: Success: master-psp2full
[15:22] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Jippieh it builds
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[15:32] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 28a1f729: Success: master-psp2
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[15:45] #scummvm: mode change '+o ajax16384' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[16:00] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- closed pull request #2502: BACKENDS: Move default implementations of getScreenPixelBuffer into BaseBackend (master...default-pixel-buffer) https://git.io/JTJzQ
[16:00] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJM8
[16:00] <Scummette> scummvm/master 5a47b09 ccawley2011: BACKENDS: Move default implementations of getScreenPixelBuffer into BaseBackend
[16:00] <Scummette> scummvm/master 196a25d ccawley2011: BACKENDS: Add missing override keywords
[16:00] <Scummette> scummvm/master 8594f25 ccawley2011: BACKENDS: Add comment to describe the purpose of BaseBackend
[16:09] <grogbot> <timofonic> > bgfx? @aquadran https://github.com/bkaradzic/bgfx MAME uses it.
[16:41] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJHL
[16:41] <Scummette> scummvm/master b3ffd89 aquadran: CONFIGURE: Do not enable opengl_shaders feature flag for gles2.
[16:52] <Scummette> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJQM
[16:52] <Scummette> scummvm/master 0c5271e dreammaster: XEEN: Fix mouth animations in Clouds intro
[16:52] <Scummette> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commits to branch-2-2: https://git.io/JTJQS
[16:52] <Scummette> scummvm/branch-2-2 736dc1c dreammaster: XEEN: Fix mouth animations in Clouds intro
[16:54] <eriktorbjorn> Ah, I had to manually select a 3D renderer for Wintermute to be able to create one for J.U.L.I.A.
[16:55] <eriktorbjorn> (I didn't have to do that for Grim Fandango, but maybe that one fell back to using TinyGL instead.)
[17:01] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with b3ffd89c: Failure: master-amigaos4
[17:04] <grogbot> <somaen> Yeah no TinyGL yet for wme
[17:10] <Scummette> [scummvm] antoniou79 pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJ57
[17:10] <Scummette> scummvm/master e8c752e antoniou79: MYST3: Remove duplicate 'enable' in widescreen mod description text
[17:12] <Scummette> [scummvm] ccawley2011 opened pull request #2503: SDL: Ensure that SDL is initialized before creating the window object (master...sdl1-window-init) https://git.io/JTJdf
[17:31] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with b3ffd89c: Success: master-android_x86_64Failure: master-osx_intel
[17:39] <Scummette> [scummvm] ScummVM-Translations pushed 4 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTJNq
[17:39] <Scummette> scummvm/master ce5837c : I18N: Update translation (French)
[17:39] <Scummette> scummvm/master f7eb007 tag2015: I18N: Update translation (Italian)
[17:39] <Scummette> scummvm/master 95229a1 sev-: I18N: Update translation (Ukrainian)
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[18:16] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with b3ffd89c: Success: master-pspfull, master-android_x86
[18:31] <grogbot> <Gantonio865> Welcome to the ScummVM bar here, sir
[18:39] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with b3ffd89c: Success: master-android_arm64
[18:43] <grogbot> <Gantonio865> Glad to see that everything is working
[18:44] <grogbot> <scemino> Hi everyone
[18:50] <grogbot> <scemino> 10 minutes before typing is... an eternity :) I present myself, I'm the author of engge, a point and click engine able to run Thimbleweed Park on Linux/Windows and MacOS: https://github.com/scemino/engge I know of course ScummVM which is so great and huge. I don't know if someone has any interest on engge, but if you are don't hesitate to contact me.
[18:51] <grogbot> <rootfather> wow, very nice.
[18:51] <grogbot> <rootfather> welcome @scemino 🙂
[18:51] <grogbot> <Gantonio865> I never played thimbleweed
[18:52] <grogbot> <scemino> I feel a bit alone on this project so if anyone can help me on this project, he is very welcome. I'm of course OK if someone wants to integrate it in scummvm.
[18:52] <grogbot> <Gantonio865> But that photo kinda looks nice
[18:52] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with b3ffd89c: Success: master-psp, master-android_arm_v7aFailure: master-switch, master-ps3
[18:54] <grogbot> <scemino> @Gantonio865 you should play it if you like point and click adventure, Ron Gilbert is the main developer (you know Monkey Island right 😉 )
[18:54] <grogbot> <Gantonio865> Yes i know monkey island
[18:55] <grogbot> <Gantonio865> That looks Kinda interesting
[18:56] <grogbot> <scemino> https://thimbleweedpark.com
[18:57] <grogbot> <SupSuper> wow, scummvm supporting a game from this century? 🙂
[18:58] <grogbot> <SupSuper> and yes thimbleweed park is the most ron gilbert adventure, if you like ron gilbert adventures you will like it. i think there's also a free prequel
[19:00] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Maybe sometime in the near future we could have an open source project "spotlight" feature on ScummVM to give a chance for developer to present their project (within the general scope of point and click adventure games or tools for them of course), and gather some extra attention / and contributions
[19:05] <grogbot> <scemino> Actually, it's kind of hard to find people to help on open source project
[19:05] <grogbot> <antoniou79> oh, I know :/
[19:06] <grogbot> <antoniou79> (even harder to find testers)
[19:06] <grogbot> <SupSuper> it's harder to read others code than to write your own
[19:07] <grogbot> <SupSuper> this is probably why you see a lot more new engines than resurrecting old engines
[19:08] <grogbot> <antoniou79> As frustrating as it can be sometimes, I kind of like the challenge of making sense out of someone's code -- well, especially if it's code that was written for a game I liked.
[19:10] <grogbot> <scemino> Yes it is really interesting to discover some tricks of an engine
[19:24] <grogbot> <SupSuper> what if it's a game you don't like ðŸĪŠ
[19:27] <grogbot> <somaen> Someone wrote a plumbers engine
[19:27] <grogbot> <somaen> So yeah, thats your answer
[19:28] <grogbot> <SupSuper> phew i can feel better about myself then 😉 i'm making progress on my engine again, need to make a video sometime
[19:31] <grogbot> <aquadran> @SupSuper that remind me 'drascula' engine. code was horrible, whole game also hardcoded
[19:31] <grogbot> <thoth> Yeah, reading other people's code is pain. Except the doom sources? I think John Carmack is a wizard or something because normal people don't write code that readable
[19:35] <grogbot> <SupSuper> @aquadran i have the opposite problem. game is horrible, code is... actually straightforward. so if people ask, "why did you do it!", i can only answer "because i'm lazy and it was easy" 🙂
[19:49] <Scummette> [scummvm] SupSuper pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTUIA
[19:49] <Scummette> scummvm/master 1ca009d SupSuper: CREATE_PROJECT: Remove orphaned opengles v1 feature
[19:49] <Scummette> scummvm/master f22f080 SupSuper: CREATE_PROJECT: --disable-opengl disables all OpenGL features
[19:49] <Scummette> scummvm/master 159e77a SupSuper: CI: ARM64 doesn't support OpenGL
[19:59] <grogbot> <ZvikaZ> > I feel a bit alone on this project so if anyone can help me on this project, he is very welcome. > I'm of course OK if someone wants to integrate it in scummvm. @scemino I'm not part of the team here, but I'm sure everyone will be happy to add a new engine. And once your engine will be part of ScummVM, it will get more attention, and more help.
[20:09] <Scummette> [scummvm] usineur opened pull request #2504: STARK: Allow module to be built as a plugin (master...stark_plugin) https://git.io/JTUtQ
[20:21] <grogbot> <gu3> @scemino your project looks great!, please feel free to keep us updated here (you can use the #offtopic channel if you don't want to disturb any scummvm-specific discussion)
[20:24] <grogbot> <Henke37> it's a bit of an unstable time, two big merges in two weeks.
[20:26] <Scummette> [scummvm] ccawley2011 pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTUmo
[20:26] <Scummette> scummvm/master baa1a49 ccawley2011: CINE: Fix warning
[20:27] <grogbot> <ZvikaZ> > it's a bit of an unstable time, two big merges in two weeks. @Henke37 his engine isn't a fork of ScummVM. I assume it will take some time to prepare it for merge.
[20:29] <grogbot> <Henke37> probably
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[20:46] <grogbot> <ZvikaZ> Wow. There's already a ResidualVM-related bug report. That was quick.. https://bugs.scummvm.org/ticket/11766
[20:49] <grogbot> <ZvikaZ> BTW, do we want to have a single bug component for all ResidualVM engines? Isn't it better to have a separate component for each of its engines? (I know that it has only +-2 engines, but still...)
[21:12] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Absolutely. Sooner or later someone with access to the bugs tracker will add entries in for the new engines
[21:20] <Scummette> [scummvm] whiterandrek pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTUG9
[21:20] <Scummette> scummvm/master 8a660c6 whiterandrek: PETKA: refactor FileMgr
[21:20] <Scummette> scummvm/master 75ea458 whiterandrek: PETKA: fix walk bug
[21:21] <Scummette> [scummvm] whiterandrek pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JTUGF
[21:21] <Scummette> scummvm/master a65f901 whiterandrek: PETKA: do not allow loading when qsystem is null
[21:29] <grogbot> <timofonic> > Yeah no TinyGL yet for wme @somaen Sorry to insist... Do you know about bgfx? I said it to aquadran before.
[21:33] <grogbot> <timofonic> @scemino I'm a fan of your project. If ScummVM integration happens someday, it will be awesome. DISCLAIMER: I'm not part of ScummVM Team.
[21:34] <grogbot> <trembyle> Not having played the game, perhaps I'm missing a reference, but what does the name of the engine refer to?
[21:37] <grogbot> <timofonic> @scemino engge depends on imgui, sfml, dear sfml, clipper. What would that mean in an hypothetical ScummVM merge? Does engge has hardware acceleration by GPU?
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[21:46] <grogbot> <trembyle> And while I'm asking about engine names, shouldn't the grim engine be called grime, since it supports more than just grim fandango?
[21:46] <thimbleweed> @bgK As a completely ignorant non-dev user, long time follower of both residualvm and scummvm, and provided I would have respected your decision as a top contributor, what can be a reason to not merging both projects? Is it relevant technically if the engine is on scummvm or residual or is it something more to do with cosmetic things that we are
[21:46] <thimbleweed> not aware of?
[21:48] <thimbleweed> I mean, Sev and others reasons are perfectly understandable but I did not see any argument from the ones you think its a bad idea (I would have respected you though0, but I can simply cant comprehend why it matters to you to that extent
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[21:49] <Lightkey> trembyle: As a former LucasArts developer revealed some years ago, GrimE simply stood for Grim Engine, so eh, same difference.
[21:49] <grogbot> <trembyle> Fair enough
[21:50] <grogbot> <trembyle> It's also that grime kind of goes along with scumm.
[21:55] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran opened pull request #2505: BACKENDS: Attempt to fix ios7 build (master...fix-ios-enum) https://git.io/JTUCY
[22:17] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran closed pull request #2505: BACKENDS: Attempt to fix ios7 build (master...fix-ios-enum) https://git.io/JTUCY
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[22:23] <grogbot> <timofonic> LucasArts developers were punk nerds. Scum, smegma, grime...
[22:37] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran opened pull request #2506: BACKENDS: Attempt to fix ios7 build (master...fix-ios7) https://git.io/JTU8d
[22:45] <grogbot> <Gantonio865> Yea, some 80s/90s devs were peculiar Script Creation Ultility for Maniac Mansion = Scumm Grim Engine = GrimE INteractive Streaming ANimation Engine = INSANE Apogee Sound System = ASS
[22:50] <grogbot> <SupSuper> gotta have fun at work 😉
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[22:58] <grogbot> <SupSuper> well i finally recorded some footage of my WIP engine... and youtube already copyright-striked it
[22:58] <grogbot> <SupSuper> enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg-nINvTa_Y
[23:25] <Lightkey> As long as there is going to be a way to turn down the music volume, holy cow.
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[00:00] --- Sun Oct 11 2020