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[00:00] <grogbot> <gordonfish> I can understand that. I still find it strange that this isn't a problem anywhere else (namely NES and other classic console emulators) where having betas/prototypes/prereleases is quite common. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 has about a dozen by itself. What I honestly want to understand is why it seems to be so much more of a problem with SVM? I wont ask about this again or bring it up, I just want to have a better understanding so that I can be
[00:00] <grogbot> more informed here.
[00:01] <grogbot> <Losetech> you're talking about 2 different things really
[00:01] <grogbot> <Losetech> emulators are a totally different thing
[00:12] <grogbot> <SupSuper> you've ever heard of "once bitten, twice shy"? scummvm has gotten big scary legal letters before. we'd rather not get big scary legal letters again. we don't care about how grey the grey is, we just don't want it. it's that simple
[00:19] <grogbot> <SupSuper> "this isn't a problem anywhere else" just means anywhere else hasn't gotten any big scary legal letters. it's not a proof of permission, it just means they're lucky, and we're not
[00:25] <grogbot> <eientei> Counter idea that probably solves the issue: Add detection and mark it as pirated
[00:26] <grogbot> <trembyle> The pirated copies that we detect and don't support are actually modified. This is theoretically a "legitimate" copy, but it has most likely been illegitimately obtained.
[00:29] <grogbot> <trembyle> The problem is that the very idea that we know the signature of this ROM implies that someone who has contributed to the project had a copy.
[00:30] <grogbot> <trembyle> and therein lies the rub
[00:33] <grogbot> <trembyle> My understanding of current US copyright law is that, assuming Ron Gilbert (the "author") lives another 30 years, the game will enter the public domain in 2122. Maybe all we need is just a little patience. 😛
[00:35] <grogbot> <Henke37> didn't someone say that company stuff have a longer time?
[00:35] <grogbot> <trembyle> The laws have changed somewhat recently.
[00:36] <grogbot> <trembyle> Of course, if Space Disney has an interest in lengthening copyright in the late 21st century, they'll likely lobby congress and change the laws again.
[00:37] <grogbot> <trembyle> But to answer your question, I have no idea really, and this is entirely theoretical.
[00:50] <grogbot> <eientei> Copyright in the USA Disney was a mistake
[00:51] <grogbot> <eientei> Can't be having any iteration of Mickey Mouse become PD
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[01:20] <Scummette> [scummvm] deckarep opened pull request #3503: SCI: Update help documentation for the new stack alias named: "st" (master...master) https://git.io/JXBgG
[01:38] <grogbot> <Retrodude> unfortunately repairing a broken copyright system is out of the scope of the ScummVM project
[01:51] <grogbot> <eientei> Unless... 🤔
[01:52] <grogbot> <eientei> I feel like I'm about to be bopped again by sev
[01:55] <grogbot> <trembyle> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a2/29/0b/a2290b5a030e9cb9dab790b66594f2a1.gif
[02:04] <Scummette> [scummvm] trembyle pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JXB1N
[02:04] <Scummette> scummvm/master 7639f83 trembyle: DIRECTOR: Add detection for later Warlock AV
[02:11] <Scummette> [scummvm] sluicebox closed pull request #3503: SCI: Update help documentation for the new stack alias named: "st" (master...master) https://git.io/JXBgG
[02:11] <Scummette> [scummvm] sluicebox pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JXBD9
[02:11] <Scummette> scummvm/master 686c8dc deckarep: SCI: Update help documentation for the new stack alias named: "st"
[02:12] <Endy> *waves*
[02:12] <Endy> Ohh Monday morning debates on the brokeness of copyright laws. Fun stuff :P
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[03:40] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Nothing compared to a fun Saturday trying to update development libraries and support software on a Mac that hasn't had it done in several years. :P. I was originally all set to spend Sunday finally looking into some of the backlog of AGS bugs, but I felt so drained I couldn't bring myself to do much more than simply approve a few relevant PRs 😛
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[05:04] <Endy> DreamMaster: Ouch, yeah rebuilding ones development enviroment is a bit of a enthusiasm dampener for sure :)
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[06:53] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> Yeah, they've been looking into Loom for what, six-and-a-half years now?
[06:53] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/907162366020554793/loom-promise.png
[06:55] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> Not that I mind the talkie version. It has some interesting differences. But still... "One of these things is not like the others, ..."
[06:55] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/907162916778815488/loom-montage.png
[07:16] <grogbot> <sev> You have zero idea what you're talking about. I do know amount of code required for supporting the NES prototype.
[07:27] <grogbot> <sev> Yes, the major difference is the resource offsets. So, basically, since ScummVM is not an emulator, you should implement the engine differences. Which, in this case would basically look like if (it_is_NES_prototype) { use_different_offsets(); do_some_other_minor_things() } Which literally screaming: ScummVM has the illegal copy and enables other people to obtain it illegally and play
[07:29] <grogbot> <sev> and your argument about emulators makes zero sense. If, say, MM NES prototype had a custom mapper, used only in this game, or, say a custom chip, used only in this game, that could potentially look different. Though, frankly speaking, the emu community is operating in a gray zone and closing their eyes to the piracy by design. And this is the reason why so many folks there hid their identity. ScummVM team members are operating publicly.
[07:31] <Endy> And as someone who was involved in said scary legal discussions with Big Game, if we hadn't been so so so careful then LucasArts would have shut the project down 15 years ago.
[07:31] <Endy> So _sev is 100% correct, it's not a technical problem it's a legal and moral one.
[07:33] <Endy> eriktorbjorn: Emphasis on the 'disgrace' :)
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[07:40] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- closed pull request #3493: BACKENDS: DIALOG: GTK: Keep main window updated during GTK+ dialog (master...gtk-idle-handler) https://git.io/JPjq3
[07:40] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JX0zK
[07:40] <Scummette> scummvm/master bb0ce7f eriktorbjorn: BACKENDS: DIALOG: GTK: Keep main window updated during GTK+ dialog
[07:41] <Scummette> [scummvm] ScummVM-Translations pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JX0z1
[07:41] <Scummette> scummvm/master bc90166 : I18N: Update translations templates
[07:41] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> I'm sure there are those who'd say the biggest disgrace is that I don't have the Amiga version in that comparison. What can I say? My collection is pretty slim when it comes to Amiga games. 😋
[07:43] <grogbot> <eientei> In theory, could one patch in the resources into their local extracted copy and enjoy it on their machine? (assuming the differences are graphical and not in the scripts)
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[07:51] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JX0a5
[07:51] <Scummette> scummvm/master 82e405a aquadran: TINYGL: Fixed tglViewport transformation
[07:51] <Scummette> [scummvm] ScummVM-Translations pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JX0aF
[07:51] <Scummette> scummvm/master d5648a0 : I18N: Update translation files
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[07:54] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JX0V6
[07:54] <Scummette> scummvm/master 0c5e091 aquadran: PLAYGROUND3D: Added viewport test
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[08:01] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JX0oO
[08:01] <Scummette> scummvm/master d810267 aquadran: STARK: Fixed blitting offset in software renderer
[08:01] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran closed pull request #3500: SURFACESDL: Implemented fallback in case lack of VSYNC (master...sdl-vsync) https://git.io/JXZ22
[08:01] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/JX0oW
[08:01] <Scummette> scummvm/master dfe477e aquadran: SURFACESDL: Implemented fallback in case lack of VSYNC
[08:01] <Scummette> scummvm/master 543e53e aquadran: SURFACESDL: Implemented missing kFeatureVSync for getFeatureState()
[08:02] <Scummette> [scummvm] ScummVM-Translations pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JX0oR
[08:02] <Scummette> scummvm/master 5be2b22 : I18N: Update translations templates
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[08:44] <grogbot> <sev> @eientei in theory, one could reimplement the whole game in AGS
[08:44] <grogbot> <sev> And the difference is in the scripts as well
[08:59] <grogbot> <eientei> That's a good point
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[10:13] <Scummette> [scummvm] citral23 pushed 1 new commits to branch-2-5: https://git.io/JXEnV
[10:13] <Scummette> scummvm/branch-2-5 edb731a citral23: OPENDINGUX: Add support for Opendingux Beta
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[10:56] <Scummette> [scummvm] antoniou79 pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JXEam
[10:56] <Scummette> scummvm/master 41cd647 antoniou79: BLADERUNNER: RC: Increase likelihood of restored greeting
[10:57] <Scummette> [scummvm] ScummVM-Translations pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JXEaZ
[10:57] <Scummette> scummvm/master 6789851 : I18N: Update translation files
[13:21] <Scummette> [scummvm] einstein95 opened pull request #3504: DIRECTOR: Add patches to get A Silly Noisy House in-game (master...director) https://git.io/JXuuy
[14:12] <Scummette> [scummvm] trembyle closed pull request #3504: DIRECTOR: Add patches to get Windows version of A Silly Noisy House in-game (master...director) https://git.io/JXuuy
[14:12] <Scummette> [scummvm] trembyle reopened pull request #3504: DIRECTOR: Add patches to get Windows version of A Silly Noisy House in-game (master...director) https://git.io/JXuuy
[14:13] <Scummette> [scummvm] trembyle closed pull request #3504: DIRECTOR: Add patches to get Windows version of A Silly Noisy House in-game (master...director) https://git.io/JXuuy
[14:13] <Scummette> [scummvm] trembyle pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JXudE
[14:13] <Scummette> scummvm/master cc4e9ec einstein95: DIRECTOR: Add patches to get "Silly Noisy House" in-game
[15:41] <grogbot> <antoniou79> "The Prince and the Coward" just got released on GOG.com!
[15:57] <grogbot> <trembyle> Uses ScummVM, right?
[15:58] <grogbot> <antoniou79> It does! 2.5.0 version too 🙂
[15:58] <grogbot> <antoniou79> but the page does not mention it.
[15:59] <grogbot> <trembyle> Sweet. And it's available in 4 languages. Nice work GOG!
[15:59] <grogbot> <antoniou79> maybe it's because it's too new
[16:00] <grogbot> <trembyle> I hope that they credit the ScummVM team for translations as well as the engine.
[16:01] <grogbot> <trembyle> Or is that actually in our credits?
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[17:00] <Scummette> [scummvm] tag2015 opened pull request #3505: AGS: Add detection for some missing games/variants and some naming fixes (master...master) https://git.io/JXgev
[17:16] <eriktorbjorn> That's surprising. The compatibility page lists The Prince and the Coward as "Untested".
[17:23] <grogbot> <antoniou79> I believe GOG has a team that tests the games they release (at least for being playable from start to finish) (?)
[17:38] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Did the original game come with a manual? GOG does not seem to offer one -- but if there was one, they'd have to translate it for English I guess.
[17:58] <grogbot> <trembyle> This copy of the game includes a half-page "manual" 😂 https://allegro.pl/oferta/ksiaze-i-tchorz-plyta-bdb-pl-pc-10688924561
[17:59] <grogbot> <trembyle> Entire translation: Move your character, left mouse button Menu, right mouse button
[18:01] <grogbot> <trembyle> Ah, much nicer manual in the big box https://allegro.pl/oferta/ksiaze-i-tchorz-big-box-kolekcjonerski-polski-pl-9757855111
[18:05] <grogbot> <aquadran> haha, but what a price...
[18:06] <grogbot> <trembyle> I know, what is going on there? 10000zB is over 2000 euro.
[18:06] <grogbot> <trembyle> There is another listing at half the price, but it's missing the manual.
[18:07] <grogbot> <aquadran> maybe some scum
[18:08] <grogbot> <aquadran> some linked from page also, like this https://allegro.pl/oferta/nowa-grand-theft-auto-san-andreas-big-box-pc-gta-10071473996
[18:10] <grogbot> <aquadran> haha https://allegro.pl/oferta/dying-light-2-aiden-caldwell-figurka-e3-autografy-10717040494 this is crazy, this doesn't look real
[18:11] <grogbot> <aquadran> can't believe that it could cost like this
[18:18] <grogbot> <trembyle> Better shot of the manual
[18:19] <grogbot> <trembyle> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/907334912623931472/unknown.jpeg
[18:19] <grogbot> <Henke37> is the entire thing in italics?
[18:20] <grogbot> <trembyle> It looks like the photos on the crazy expensive listing were stolen from here https://archiwum.allegro.pl/oferta/ideal-ksiaze-i-tchorz-big-box-kolekcjonerski-pc-pl-i7340709709.html
[18:20] <grogbot> <trembyle> Maybe just the backstory?
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[18:56] <Scummette> [scummvm] aquadran pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JXgR1
[18:56] <Scummette> scummvm/master 188caf1 aquadran: STARK: Fixed savegame screenshots for software renderer
[18:59] <grogbot> <aquadran> it's some story
[19:00] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> This is what mine looks like, but I never bothered reading the manual since my German is pretty terrible.
[19:00] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/907345316129439745/galador.jpg
[19:03] <grogbot> <trembyle> Wow, full color! Looks pretty nice.
[19:04] <grogbot> <trembyle> I'll keep an eye out for the Polish version at a sane price. I've bought from Allegro before, but never bothered saying up alerts for anything.
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[19:12] <grogbot> <jakejakejake1234> You know @eriktorbjorn you got me thinking about loom and the mysterious weavers.
[19:12] <grogbot> <jakejakejake1234> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/907348458376151040/Loom-atropos.png
[19:15] <grogbot> <jakejakejake1234> I always wondered what they looked like under those hoods. So I decided to brighten the image a little so we could finally see what the weavers look like once and for all. And I got say it kind of sucked.
[19:15] <grogbot> <jakejakejake1234> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/907349040667177080/Loom-loomsucks.png
[19:20] <grogbot> <Retrodude> Which version is the top right from? The font looks different than standard.
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[19:25] <grogbot> <jakejakejake1234> For all you loom lovers out there I recommend watching this video featuring the games creator Brian Morriarty. Very informative to say the least. https://youtu.be/z1aVDael-KM
[19:33] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> It's the 16-colour Mac version. It uses a high-resolution font on upscaled graphics. The 16-colour Mac version of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade does, too.
[19:39] <grogbot> <Retrodude> Cool!
[19:41] <grogbot> <Retrodude> I'd so love to see a postmortem on something from Humongous someday, particularly on the development of the first Freddi Fish game
[19:41] <grogbot> <Retrodude> One of the former Humongous employees has shared footage and screenshots of the early development of that one and it started out with a VERY different artstyle
[19:42] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> ScummVM should support the Mac version of Loom pretty well now, though the text isn't pixel perfect and at least one (in my opinion unnecessary) feature is missing. (The original allowed you to move around the little box with notes that you see in practice mode.)
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[19:45] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> There are a bunch of screenshots, mostly of Indy 3, in this pull request: https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/pull/3417
[19:46] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> Tjere
[19:48] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> Though someone still needs to implement the Macintosh GUI: https://www.mobygames.com/game/macintosh/indiana-jones-and-the-last-crusade-the-graphic-adventure/screenshots
[19:50] <grogbot> <eriktorbjorn> By the way, the Mac versions of the AGI games also worked in black-and-white. But I couldn't figure out exactly how they did it from the screenshots I've seen, and it even looked like different games (or perhaps different versions of their AGI interpreter?) used different methods. The horror...
[20:01] <grogbot> <trembyle> They were different games using different assets. Sierra would actually send you new disks if you had purchased the black & white version and wanted to upgrade.
[20:02] <grogbot> <trembyle> I'm not even certain that all of the colorized games were sold. Some may have exclusively been sent as upgrade disks.
[20:17] <grogbot> <IlDucci> I don't get it
[20:17] <grogbot> <IlDucci> Wasn't Prince and the Coward a released to freeware game, like Soltys?
[21:52] <Scummette> [scummvm] athrxx pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/JXgxC
[21:52] <Scummette> scummvm/master e221cd4 athrxx: KYRA: (LoK/Mac) - add Mac sound support
[21:52] <Scummette> scummvm/master 0f5e308 athrxx: KYRA: (LoK/Mac) - reduce code by adding macros
[21:56] <Scummette> [scummvm] neuromancer pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JXgxx
[21:56] <Scummette> scummvm/master c9d56e6 neuromancer: HYPNO: fixed player position and shots in spider-man game + loading of more levels
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[21:59] <grogbot> <sev> it seems to be, at least, at some point, but since that, the original owners' website went down, so there is only a record in Web Archive, and IIRC, no license is attached, it was just made for download
[21:59] <grogbot> <sev> thus, basically, somebody has to chase it and confirm its status
[22:02] <ScummBot> Build [#2759](https://buildbot.scummvm.org/#builders/17/builds/2759) of `master-riscos-vfp-2` failed.
[22:09] <grogbot> <IlDucci> I wouldn't like that much that a fantranslation ended up being sold for profit
[22:10] <grogbot> <IlDucci> I mean, without proper permission
[22:10] <grogbot> <IlDucci> And probably a cut
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[22:17] <Scummette> [scummvm] athrxx pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JX2eM
[22:17] <Scummette> scummvm/master 8fe4c0a athrxx: KYRA: (LoK/Mac) - fix gcc warning
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[22:21] <ScummBot> Build [#2759](https://buildbot.scummvm.org/#builders/38/builds/2759) of `master-riscos-2` failed.
[22:28] <Scummette> [scummvm] athrxx pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JX2f9
[22:28] <Scummette> scummvm/master 85b0157 athrxx: NEWS: mention Kyra/Mac update
[22:40] <Scummette> [scummvm] benoit-pierre opened pull request #3506: XEEN: fix caster selection during non-combat spell casting (master...xeen_fix_caster_selection_during_non-combat_spell_casting) https://git.io/JX2US
[22:48] <ScummBot> Build [#2481](https://buildbot.scummvm.org/#builders/34/builds/2481) of `fetch-master` failed.
[22:56] <grogbot> <trembyle> I don't the ScummVM can take a cut. But at the very least GOG should ask permission and credit the ScummVM translators.
[22:58] <grogbot> <trembyle> To @sev's point, we don't even know if they asked permission to sell the game itself, let alone the translation.
[22:58] <grogbot> <trembyle> Although it's hard to believe they would open themselves up to the legal liability and reputation risk of not doing so.
[23:01] <grogbot> <Henke37> i have heard of paid unofficial translations before.
[23:03] <grogbot> <IlDucci> Yeah, that's aplenty in indie games
[23:03] <grogbot> <IlDucci> Or crowdsourcing
[23:03] <grogbot> <IlDucci> But a translation that was made for the public domain, taken and sold...
[23:03] <grogbot> <IlDucci> Unless they know nobody responsible would have the money to take them to court
[23:03] <grogbot> <IlDucci> That's a game many play
[23:04] <grogbot> <Henke37> or just depended on the language barrier keeping them unaware.
[23:05] <grogbot> <IlDucci> That's a gambit, in fact: thinking there's been a new owner that has the rights and courts in favor in case of lawsuit
[23:06] <grogbot> <IlDucci> Or knowing that no individual translator would sue them
[23:06] <grogbot> <IlDucci> Paid unofficial translations that become official has happened, indeed
[23:06] <grogbot> <IlDucci> But those are few and far between
[23:14] <-- palasso left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[23:39] <Scummette> [scummvm] athrxx pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JX2GD
[23:39] <Scummette> scummvm/master e54238c athrxx: KYRA: try to fix RiscOs build
[23:44] <ScummBot> Build [#2761](https://buildbot.scummvm.org/#builders/17/builds/2761) of `master-riscos-vfp-2` completed successfully.
[23:59] <ScummBot> Build [#2761](https://buildbot.scummvm.org/#builders/38/builds/2761) of `master-riscos-2` completed successfully.
[00:00] --- Tue Nov 9 2021