ScummVM IRC Log - 05 May 2021

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[05:30] <Scummette> [scummvm] mduggan pushed 5 new commits to master: https://git.io/J3wbR
[05:30] <Scummette> scummvm/master f3f5aca mduggan: ULTIMA8: Fix assert in reshowing Crusader status gump
[05:30] <Scummette> scummvm/master ca2226c mduggan: ULTIMA8: Fix location of Crusader bullet splash shapes
[05:30] <Scummette> scummvm/master f30c74e mduggan: ULTIMA8: More savegame integrity checks
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[10:34] <Scummette> [scummvm] digitall pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/J3ryQ
[10:34] <Scummette> scummvm/master a51f5e9 digitall: GRAPHICS: Fix GCC Compiler Warnings
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[11:56] <Scummette> [scummvm] mduggan pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/J3oeQ
[11:56] <Scummette> scummvm/master 12f8e86 mduggan: ULTIMA8: Make loading work with different path configurations
[11:56] <Scummette> scummvm/master 2b4785f mduggan: ULTIMA8: Fix Crusader animated flames, steam, etc.
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[12:40] <grogbot> <BRWoodheadLine> Hello everyone
[12:41] <grogbot> <BRWoodheadLine> I'm having some spot of bother
[12:48] <grogbot> <mduggan> Hello, what sort of bother?
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[13:52] <grogbot> <BRWoodheadLine> well, whenever I try to acess into the Debug rooms in the HE games... All I ever get is just a frezzed up screen for the last 5 or 6 hours
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[13:57] <Dominus> mduggan: how much is Crusader playable now? And are both games equally playable?
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[14:00] <grogbot> <antoniou79> @BRWoodheadLine which version of ScummVM are you testing with?
[14:06] <grogbot> <BRWoodheadLine> 2.1.0 October 5th 2019
[14:08] <grogbot> <mduggan> @Dominus No Remorse is now almost finished. There are a few small noticable bugs left, but it's quite playable and I'm very close to asking people to test it. The caveat being that I haven't played past mission 2 myself, so there may be bugs further through the game. I also don't want to ask for others to test until I know savegames work properly and I'm confident I won't need to change them.
[14:09] <grogbot> <mduggan> No Regret has more unfinished pieces - it's interesting to walk around in and play, but still feels a bit broken.
[14:10] <grogbot> <Khvostik> Great news. Hyped for these two games to be supported
[14:12] <grogbot> <mduggan> also the demos and versions outside of English are all quite broken at the moment, so still some things to do if I want to go for completeness..
[14:14] <grogbot> <Khvostik> They have tracker music, right?
[14:15] <grogbot> <Khvostik> Not standart midi
[14:15] <grogbot> <mduggan> yep
[14:15] <grogbot> <Khvostik> Great thanks for answer
[14:16] <grogbot> <Khvostik> So not need to worry scummvm may not support some sound options 😄
[14:16] <grogbot> <trembyle> Do the console versions use a different engine?
[14:17] <grogbot> <mduggan> @trembyle ah yeah, console versions were totally different assets etc so I haven't even tried looking at them
[14:17] <grogbot> <trembyle> got it. sorry, I know very little about these games. I was just curious.
[14:18] <grogbot> <mduggan> No worries, honestly I don't know much about the console releases either - I guess "totally different" is an overstatement, but quite different.. and I don't have any of them so haven't tried looking into them
[14:19] <grogbot> <trembyle> Looks like only Remorse was released for consoles (PSX and Saturn).
[14:19] <grogbot> <antoniou79> @BRWoodheadLine is this on Windows? Do you get a frozen screen when trying to access the ScummVM debugger?
[14:19] <grogbot> <antoniou79> If so, try one of the more recent stable verions or a daily development build.
[14:20] <grogbot> <antoniou79> There was an issue with one Windows release (I think it was 2.1.0), where the debugger was configured to run in the background console, but the ScummVM was configured to run without a background console window, effectively "freezing" the game when calling the ScummVm debugger.
[14:27] <grogbot> <trembyle> Watching some videos on YT, they look a little different, but not entirely. It's possible that these use the same engine.
[14:27] <grogbot> <trembyle> Also, I haven't seen this game since I played the demo 25 years ago. This game looks like a lot of fun!
[14:27] <grogbot> <trembyle> They also push the envelope on the type of game ScummVM supports.
[14:29] <grogbot> <Khvostik> Well they are on ultima 8 engine
[14:29] <grogbot> <Khvostik> So allowed by rules
[14:29] <grogbot> <Khvostik> 🙂
[14:30] <grogbot> <Khvostik> If ever for example scummvm will support Xngine for AESL Battlespire and TES Adventures Redguard, we will get Terminator future shock/skynet shooter and x-car experemental racing as a bonus 😬
[14:30] <grogbot> <trembyle> I'm not sure that there really are rules, but I think it makes sense to push the genres incrementally, and this does so, moving forward from U8.
[14:31] <grogbot> <mduggan> Yes, they squeeze in on the same-engine exception that also allows Hoyle's etc, although I realize they are not really the normal fare for ScummVM. I still had a lot of fun reversing them though, and the process helped me fix a stack of U8 bugs as I understood the engine better, so it's not all bad.
[14:32] <grogbot> <trembyle> That is great to hear 🙂
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[15:20] <grogbot> <BRWoodheadLine> I on a windows 10
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[15:26] <grogbot> <antoniou79> ok, but when do you get the frozen screen? Can you bring up the ScummVM debugger?
[15:28] <grogbot> <BRWoodheadLine> I got the frozon right at the beginning of the game after the HE logo
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[15:37] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Can you provide details on what you're doing? I am confused, maybe someone else has understood better.
[15:38] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Also, please try the latest ScummVM version anyway. 2.1.0 is old at the point.
[15:38] <grogbot> <antoniou79> You wrote someting about trying to access debug rooms. Are you not doing that with the ScummVM debugger? Are you using command line arguments?
[15:43] <grogbot> <BRWoodheadLine> well, so far I have installed ScummVM version 2.2.0
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[16:13] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I cant run the buildbot daily on my Windows XP something about missing dll:
[16:13] <grogbot> <rsn8887> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/839535750143803412/image0.jpg
[16:13] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Normaliz.dll
[16:13] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Shouldnt it be bundled if needed?
[16:14] <grogbot> <rsn8887> 2.2.0 didnt need this
[16:15] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Did we drop xp support? That would be disappointing
[16:25] <grogbot> <rsn8887> The old buildbot version works on XP. It seems to be a problem of the new buildbot.
[16:25] <grogbot> <rsn8887> The one from here (May 5) works: https://buildbot-old.scummvm.org/builds.html
[16:26] <grogbot> <rsn8887> The one from here (May 5) doesn't work: https://buildbot.scummvm.org/#/snapshots
[16:32] <grogbot> <rootfather> First, XP support is not dropped, it just won't include all new features (e.g. like Discord)
[16:33] <grogbot> <rootfather> could you please check if https://scummvm.serra.me/scummvm-snapshot-2.3.0git-winxp-win32.7z has the same issue?
[16:34] <grogbot> <rootfather> I'm wondering which library has the normaliz.dll as dependency though
[16:38] <grogbot> <ccawley2011> That's strange, it works fine for me.
[16:38] <grogbot> <ccawley2011> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/839542069881995344/ScummVM-May-05-21.PNG
[16:40] <grogbot> <rsn8887> This version works for me: https://scummvm.serra.me/scummvm-snapshot-2.3.0git-winxp-win32.7z
[16:41] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Let me try the other one again
[16:41] <grogbot> <rsn8887> @ccawley2011 This one works for you? https://buildbot.scummvm.org/snapshots/master/windows-x86-master-ab8c4cc5.zip
[16:42] <grogbot> <ccawley2011> Yes, that's the one.
[16:43] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I just tried it again. The version https://buildbot.scummvm.org/snapshots/master/windows-x86-master-ab8c4cc5.zip gives me the missing normaliz.dll error on XP.
[16:44] <grogbot> <ccawley2011> Looking at the output from Dependency Walker, ScummVM uses IdnToAscii and IdnToUnicode from normaliz.dll.
[16:44] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Using Windows Xp Professional 32bit Version 22002 Service Pack 3
[16:45] <grogbot> <ccawley2011> These seem to require "Microsoft Internationalized Domain Name (IDN) Mitigation APIs onWindows XP with SP2 and later,Windows Server 2003 with SP1" on XP, according to this: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winnls/nf-winnls-idntoascii#requirements
[16:46] <grogbot> <ccawley2011> I don't remember deliberately installing this, so I'm not sure why this works for me.
[16:46] <grogbot> <rsn8887> This says minimum requirement is Vista?!?!
[16:47] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It would be good not to depend on this kind of thing? I will install it and see if it works.
[16:48] <grogbot> <ccawley2011> I think it's only used for IDN support in curl, so it can probably be disabled.
[16:49] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It could be my XP install is incomplete?
[16:50] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Is normaliz.dll part of the Windows XP typical installation?
[16:51] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I don't know. I installed from official CD I think. It has been a while.
[16:51] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Some old threads seem to suggest it is, and people who removed IE had issues aftewards...
[16:51] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Maybe it comes with some IE Update?
[16:51] <grogbot> <antoniou79> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/101151/normalizdll/
[16:52] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Does @ccawley2011 have the dll file under system32?
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[16:52] <LilUFO> sup :P
[16:53] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Or maybe it's part of a localized Windows XP installation?
[16:54] <grogbot> <rsn8887> If I download normaliz.dll and put it in the ScummVM folder, it works.
[16:55] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I never go online with my XP computer, so it is not getting updates or anything.
[16:56] <LilUFO> Is neverhood better played with the original executable, or through scummvm these days?
[16:56] <grogbot> <ccawley2011> Yes, it is in C:\windows\system32. I have IE8 installed, so maybe it came from that.
[16:56] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Yeah I never updated IE or anything
[16:58] <grogbot> <antoniou79> But the build from old buildbot works without it?
[16:58] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Yes
[16:59] <grogbot> <rsn8887> And 2.2.0 release also.
[17:00] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I only have IE 6, which came with XP.
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[17:04] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I switched to OpenGL and the GUI is so pretty now 🙂
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[17:05] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It just crashed after switching between NormalXX and OpenGL a few times...
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[17:06] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I remember that switching used to be hacky but I thought that hack should have been removed recently.
[17:10] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Although the GUI looks great, the pixels in old games are really blurry with OpenGL. The Normal2x looks better, sharper, undistorted pixels.
[17:11] <grogbot> <rootfather> I recommend disabling the bilinear filtering, then it should look crisp as well
[17:11] <grogbot> <rsn8887> If I disable filtering, then OpenGL pixels are distorted. So the best option for games still seems to be Normal2X it results in sharp bilinear type filtering (integer pre-scale.
[17:11] <grogbot> <rootfather> and enable integer scaling
[17:11] <grogbot> <rsn8887> WHere's the integer scaling option?
[17:12] <grogbot> <rootfather> You can toggle the scaling options with Ctrl + Alt + S
[17:12] <grogbot> <rootfather> or in the GUI -> Graphics tab
[17:15] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Oh you mean "Pixel-perfect scaling"
[17:15] <grogbot> <rootfather> yup
[17:15] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Yeah, but together with aspect correction, it distorts the pixels vertically pretty unevenly
[17:15] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Like evey second pixel or so is taller than the others.
[17:16] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Pretty ugly IMO.
[17:16] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I prefer Normal 2x with filtering enabled. The pixels are slightly blurry and even.
[17:17] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It is a happy coincidence that NormalXX with filtering on gives an integer prescale + bilinear.
[17:17] <grogbot> <rootfather> Never noticed that, its my favorite way to play 😄
[17:17] <grogbot> <rsn8887> The best would be to have a sharp-bilinear shader that does this.
[17:23] <grogbot> <Khvostik> Interesting that people always said "how ugly 320x200 on modern big screens". For me it is fine on my 4k monitor 🤔
[17:24] <grogbot> <rsn8887> The best mode IMO is still Normal2X, Filtering ON, Aspect Correction OFF, Fit to Window (4:3). Pixels are sharp but slightly blurry, and no distortion.
[17:25] <grogbot> <rsn8887> OpenGL with Aspect On and Pixel-Perfect:
[17:25] <grogbot> <rsn8887> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/839553742842888202/unknown.png
[17:25] <grogbot> Command sent by thoth
[17:25] <grogbot> ...Isn't aspect correction important?
[17:25] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Pixels are distorted
[17:25] <grogbot> <madmoose> The only acceptable scaling is a hard 4x in the x-direction and a hard 5x in the y-direction.
[17:25] <grogbot> Command sent by thoth
[17:25] <grogbot> ...As intended.
[17:25] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Normal 2X, Filtering ON, Aspect OFF, Fit To Window 4:3:
[17:25] <grogbot> <rsn8887> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/839553915712307241/unknown.png
[17:26] <grogbot> <rsn8887> The fit to window 4:3 removes the pixel distortion that aspect correction introduces, and has the same effect otherwise.
[17:26] <grogbot> <thoth> Isn't that distortion intentional though?
[17:27] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It is just a bad way of doing aspect correction, it looks terrible IMO. Fit to Window 4:3 does it in a much better way
[17:28] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Here is what aspect correction does:
[17:28] <grogbot> <rsn8887> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/839554611241287710/unknown.png
[17:28] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Compare the last two images.
[17:28] <grogbot> <thoth> Aha.
[17:28] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Fit to Window 4:3 does a better job.
[17:28] <grogbot> <Khvostik> I think I should buy a CRT 🤔
[17:29] <grogbot> <rsn8887> 🙂
[17:29] <grogbot> <thoth> See, I play my games unfiltered so I didn't notice...
[17:29] <grogbot> <madmoose> crt-geom-deluxe
[17:29] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Unfiltered is the image above the last two, also terrible IMO.
[17:29] <grogbot> <thoth> What can I say? I like my pixels crisp.
[17:30] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I like them crisp, but also uniform shaped. I don't like every other pixel rectangular.
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[17:30] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Fit To Window 4:3 uses your gfx card to do the correction. Aspect Correction does some software thing.
[17:31] <grogbot> <rootfather> Theres so much personal preference going on in that regard 😁
[17:31] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Everybody likes it different, I agree. Also some people like scanlines.... it is a bottomless pit.
[17:31] <grogbot> <madmoose> @rsn8887 If you don't like your pixels rectangular you can't have liked the original look of the games 😉
[17:31] <grogbot> <thoth> 'course not. Every pixel should be rectangular. 😛
[17:32] <grogbot> <rsn8887> A misunderstanding: I don't mind rectangular pixels as long as they are all the same shape.
[17:32] <grogbot> <rsn8887> What I hate is pixels that have varying shape across the screen, some square, some rectangular. That creates the ugly look that I hate.
[17:33] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I'd rather have a little blur, if it causes all pixels to have the same shape.
[17:34] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I also absolutely hate HQ2X and all that "enhancement" stuff. I wish those things had never been invented. The world would be a better place without them.
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[18:43] <grogbot> <Darkstar> uneven integer scaling is the only "correct" one on screens with square pixels (i.e. scale x times 4 and y times 5 or something)
[18:44] <grogbot> <Darkstar> after that you can apply shaders as you wish. I agree that having every n-th pixel twice as high is probably the worst looking 😄
[18:46] <Scummette> [scummvm] sluicebox pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/J3KPi
[18:46] <Scummette> scummvm/master 24989ea sluicebox: SCI32: Set GK1 Mac to ADGF_TESTING
[19:22] <Dominus> thanks mduggan! I remember asking Jason Ely about the console versions years ago and apparently they were "completely" redone... probably not completely but still different and I think the assets looked differently on the PS1 CD
[19:36] <Scummette> [scummvm] criezy pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/J3K7o
[19:36] <Scummette> scummvm/master 4b1e4d4 criezy: AGS: Add some detection entries
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[20:54] <Scummette> [scummvm] criezy pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/J36fc
[20:54] <Scummette> scummvm/master bf07a75 criezy: AGS: Update title for Space Quest IV.5
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[21:32] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/J36IW
[21:32] <Scummette> scummvm/master cea7ee1 sev-: KYRA: Fixed recently added detection entry
[21:32] <Scummette> scummvm/master 1e3f7fe sev-: MOHAWK: Added unsupported greeneggs 2.0. Bugreport #12500
[21:32] <Scummette> scummvm/master c63f21c sev-: SLUDGE: Added possibility to dump zbuffers
[21:33] <Scummette> [scummvm] ScummVM-Translations pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/J36Il
[21:33] <Scummette> scummvm/master e83ae64 : I18N: Update translations templates
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[22:26] <grogbot> <Mataniko> there is an article on doing better aspect ratio correction
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[22:30] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I don't think there's a correct way per se. I love sharp bilinear for example, it can be done completely via a single shader, see here: https://gamingprojects.wordpress.com/2017/12/03/reducing-pixel-blur-and-distortion/
[22:31] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It just finds the closest matching vertical and horizontal integer, scales via integer scaling, then scales the remaining fraction with bilinear interpolation.
[22:32] <grogbot> <Mataniko> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2owtAwcysQI
[22:33] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Is there a written version?
[22:35] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Interesting I guess the argument is that 4:3 is not always correct, it depends on the pixel clock and how exactly the image was displayed on CRT monitors at the time.
[22:35] <grogbot> <Mataniko> he has a few articles on firebrandx.com
[22:35] <grogbot> <Mataniko> but i don't think the exact math is there
[22:36] <grogbot> <Mataniko> he is more focused on consoles and tvs
[22:36] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I don't like the attitude that there's a perfect way. Old screens had adjustments. For example my PC monitor "Viewsonic" had vertical and horizontal scale adjustments. So any user could adjust any way they like.
[22:36] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Two TVs showed slightly different aspect, too. Different overscan, too.
[22:36] <grogbot> <Mataniko> yes, but i think there is a "normal" that can be defined
[22:36] <grogbot> <rsn8887> No two screens were exactly alike, so best to give options so each user can select their preference.
[22:36] <grogbot> <Mataniko> CRTs also drop pixels on the edges
[22:37] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Some CRTs showed more than others.
[22:37] <grogbot> <rsn8887> There are some cool notes in there, for example certain ratios fit perfectly in 1080p and such.
[22:37] <grogbot> <Mataniko> anyway we can apply some of that to how we do aspect correction to improve things
[22:38] <grogbot> <rsn8887> For example, 216 lines fit perfectly in 1080p with 5x integer.
[22:38] <grogbot> <rsn8887> So some games might look really good if cropped to 216, as long as only overscan area is cropped.
[22:39] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Hmm. I guess this means that 5x scaling should work quite well with 200 line games.
[22:39] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Only very small black bars on top and bottom. Do we have a "Normal5x" in ScummVM?
[22:40] <grogbot> <rsn8887> We only have Normal4x
[22:40] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I think some games are 320x200?!?! Might work well with Normal5x
[22:41] <grogbot> <Khvostik> people back in 90s played on laptops with LCDs with stretched picture lol.
[22:41] <grogbot> <rsn8887> 240 times 4 works well too, 960. Only small black bars. So for 240 line games, Normal4x might be good.
[22:41] <grogbot> <rsn8887> There's definitely something to be said to optimize for 1080p displays, since they are most common now. Maybe an optimized option for 4k would be good too.
[22:42] <grogbot> <Khvostik> I think some games are 320x200 Like... absolute majority of them on PC before SVGA?
[22:42] <grogbot> <Mataniko> but at 1080 then it's just integer scaling
[22:42] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Is there a function in SDL to retrieve the native display res?
[22:42] <grogbot> <rsn8887> So it is known to ScummVM if the display is 1080p or 4k?
[22:43] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I mean the physical display, not the desktop res.
[22:43] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Something is wrong about aspect correction as it works currently
[22:44] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It seems it is not taking into account the full output resolution.
[22:44] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It seems it acts on a smaller res internally?
[22:45] <grogbot> <Mataniko> yes, we just naively copy the buffer to stretch the height from 200 to 240
[22:45] <grogbot> <Mataniko> then apply scaling
[22:45] <grogbot> <Mataniko> check aspect.cpp
[22:45] <grogbot> <rsn8887> That's wrong IMO. It should do it to the final res, not to 240
[22:46] <grogbot> <rsn8887> for example 200 -> 960 with 4x
[22:46] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Then it can use all the pixels.
[22:46] <grogbot> <rsn8887> So without aspect, 200 -> 800, with aspect 200 -> 960
[22:46] <grogbot> <SupSuper> the opengl backend will probably get shader support eventually and then you can try all the tricks you want
[22:46] <grogbot> <Mataniko> but once you aspect correct, we do integer scaling with nearest neighbor
[22:47] <grogbot> <Mataniko> so they should retain pixels 1:1
[22:47] <grogbot> <Mataniko> and it shouldn't matter when you do the correction
[22:47] <grogbot> <rsn8887> The aspect correct can only be terrible if doing 200->240 not enough pixels there to do it well.
[22:47] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Doing 200 -> 960 instead of 200->800 on the other hand allows much better aspect correction, more pixels.
[22:48] <grogbot> <Mataniko> but you're not dealing with fractional sizing, and the amount of pixels are technically the same, they're just larger or smaller
[22:48] <grogbot> <Mataniko> i.e. 1 pixels is now a 4x4 block
[22:48] <grogbot> <Mataniko> what am i missing?
[22:48] <grogbot> <rsn8887> But you can make a 4x4 into a 5x4 for example
[22:49] <grogbot> <rsn8887> At 1x1 you can only do 2x1, no 1.3x1
[22:49] <grogbot> <rsn8887> So if you have 4x4 you have much more fine-grained sizing options.
[22:50] <grogbot> <rsn8887> The similar reason why you want to edit your photos in Photoshop at high-res, THEN down convert not the other way round.
[22:52] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Here, we want to upconvert to 800 lines, THEN do aspect correct with a much finer grid available.
[22:53] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Of course we start with 4x4 like you say, but now we have more options to change it.
[22:53] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Anyways, even doing it that way will still look terrible unless it uses some kind of blurring.
[22:54] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I think shaders are the best solution, but custom shaders are not really supported on platforms like Vita and PSP.
[22:56] <grogbot> <rsn8887> That 1.2 ratio is really unfortunate.
[22:57] <grogbot> <rsn8887> 240/200, it means the only integer that works with perfect aspect correction is 5x vertical and 4x horizontal, but 5x times 200 is 1200, doesn't fit on 1080p. Sad.
[22:57] <grogbot> <rsn8887> So ideal case would be a 1200p screen, so one could do 5x vertical and 4x horizontal, perfect.
[22:58] <grogbot> <rsn8887> No wait, that's wrong?
[22:59] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It works. 5 times 200 is 1000p.
[22:59] <grogbot> <rsn8887> So all is needed is 5x vertical and 4x horizontal, and we should have perfect aspect correction on 1080p screens.
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[22:59] <grogbot> <rsn8887> With very small black bars.
[22:59] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Can ScummVM already do this?
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[23:01] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Basically scale integer, vertical 5x and horizontal 4x.
[23:01] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Somehow I have totally confused myself.
[23:01] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It doesn't seem to be correct?
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[23:02] <grogbot> <ccawley2011> I had a go at implementing a 5x5 scaler if you want to try that out: https://github.com/ccawley2011/scummvm/commit/e408ddf2e94735d9115f105c1ee058397837baf4
[23:03] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Ah cool.
[23:03] <grogbot> <rsn8887> the aspect of 320*4/(200*5) seems wrong.
[23:03] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I don't know why.
[23:04] <grogbot> <rsn8887> 320/240 is 4:3 but 320*4/(200*5) is not.
[23:04] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It is 32/25 so totally wrong.
[23:06] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It is impossible to find two integers that give the correct aspet.
[23:08] <grogbot> <ccawley2011> (320*5)/(200*6) seems to give the correct result.
[23:09] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Yes! So my first thought was correct.
[23:10] <grogbot> <rsn8887> But that would require a 1200p screen or cropping, for perfect integer scale aspect correction. E.g. scale vertical by 6x and horizontal by 5x
[23:10] <grogbot> <rsn8887> So it is impossible to do it perfectly without any blurring or uneven pixel distortion, on a 1080p screen.
[23:11] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Because the first integers that work are 6x vertical and 5x horizontal.
[23:11] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I wonder if it works well on 4k screens. I think modern screens are 4k anyway.
[23:11] <grogbot> <rsn8887> They are 2160p
[23:13] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Still doesn't work.
[23:14] <grogbot> <rsn8887> One could only do 12x vertical and 10x horizontal I think, for perfect aspect correction and integer scale, but then it doesn't fit.
[23:14] <grogbot> <Mataniko> don't forget it's not 200*6
[23:14] <grogbot> <Mataniko> because you still need to adjust it
[23:14] <grogbot> <Mataniko> to square
[23:15] <grogbot> <rsn8887> That's the idea. If we scale by 200*6 and 320*5, then it automagically becomes aspect corrected.
[23:15] <grogbot> <rsn8887> No need for further adjusting, but it doesn't fit on a 1080p screen 😦
[23:15] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It would fit on 1440p though.
[23:15] <grogbot> <Mataniko> well let's see
[23:16] <grogbot> <Mataniko> you end up with 1200px height
[23:16] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Yes!
[23:16] <grogbot> <Mataniko> or 120px
[23:16] <grogbot> <Mataniko> but in reality
[23:16] <grogbot> <Mataniko> it's 20 pixels worth of data
[23:16] <grogbot> <Mataniko> or 10 on the top and bottom
[23:16] <grogbot> <Mataniko> you can just crop that
[23:16] <grogbot> <Mataniko> 120/6 / 2
[23:17] <grogbot> <rsn8887> yes, could be cropped?
[23:17] <grogbot> <rsn8887> We loose a bit of image that way, but might still be a good option.
[23:17] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Should be straightforward to implement, similar to Normal5x but does Normal6xvertical5xhorizontal.
[23:18] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It would only work for 320x200 games when aspect correction is needed.
[23:19] <grogbot> <Mataniko> you lose a few pixels in CRTs too
[23:19] <grogbot> <Mataniko> so it's not so bad
[23:19] <grogbot> <rsn8887> This is similar to the idea that was just implemented on MiSTer FPGA, where there is a "crop 216" option, it allows perfect integer scaling on 1080p, but looses some image on top and bottom.
[23:20] <grogbot> <Mataniko> worth checking it out and see how it looks on games
[23:20] <grogbot> <rsn8887> The reasoning is that most games were designed taking a bit of overscan into account.
[23:20] <grogbot> <Mataniko> https://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/kings-quest-vi-heir-today-gone-tomorrow/screenshots/gameShotId,2091/
[23:21] <Scummette> [scummvm] ccawley2011 opened pull request #3000: GRAPHICS: Add a Normal5x scaler (master...normal5x) https://git.io/J36W9
[23:21] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Hs@!
[23:22] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I guess sometimes the crop should be on top only. The nice thing with the 5x/6x idea is that every single game pixel will now be represented by 5*6 display pixel rectangle, perfectly uniform across the whole display, and perfectly sharp.
[23:25] <grogbot> <rsn8887> But 10 game pixel lines will be missing on the top, and 10 missing on the bottom.
[23:25] <grogbot> <rsn8887> The problem is: That's ten percent of the game screen missing lol. Because it only has 200 pixels.
[23:26] <grogbot> <Mataniko> tried cropping a resized image from DOTT
[23:26] <grogbot> <Mataniko> but it's not great
[23:26] <grogbot> <rsn8887> It is true it is "only" 20 pixels. But the game only has 200.
[23:26] <grogbot> <rsn8887> Yeah it is too much cropping I guess.
[23:26] <grogbot> <rsn8887> But on 1440p displays it would work nicely. If anyone has such a display.
[23:28] <grogbot> <Mataniko> well i'd say 1440p is pretty common now
[23:28] <grogbot> <Mataniko> actually not that common
[23:28] <grogbot> <Mataniko> https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam
[23:28] <grogbot> <Mataniko> 8.23 vs 67.6
[23:31] <grogbot> <Mataniko> still no harm in having that as an option
[23:37] <grogbot> <Mataniko> @rsn8887 OH i found the actual informative article
[23:37] <grogbot> <Mataniko> https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/FelipePepe/20150423/241730/No_MSDOS_games_werent_widescreen_Tips_on_correcting_aspect_ratio.php
[23:38] <grogbot> <Mataniko> ""Try nearest up to 640x1200 and then bilinear down to 640x480 for an even sharper image." This way the image remains perfectly sharp horizontaly, with only a slight vertical blur:"
[23:38] <grogbot> <rsn8887> I didn't think of that. Might be good to have as an option.
[23:39] <grogbot> <rsn8887> First upscale and then downscale with bilinear, can make use of the oversamplling.
[23:42] <grogbot> <Mataniko> ugh why can't macos have a decent image editor like paint.net
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[23:48] <grogbot> <Mataniko> ok i did a side by side of the two resize methods
[23:48] <grogbot> <Mataniko> you can't tell
[23:49] <grogbot> <Mataniko> a very minor difference, but nearly indistinguishable
[23:50] <grogbot> <Mataniko> some sub-pixel color bleed but it's really not bad
[00:00] --- Thu May 6 2021