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[07:14] <L0ngcat> DrMcCoy: https://forums.scummvm.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14841
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[09:02] <rootfather|work> Updating the webserver on scummvm.org now, short hiccup might occur
[09:04] <rootfather|work> and it's done
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[12:18] <L0ngcat> DrMcCoy: re 7th Guest - I installed the gog version, the resource files are stored inside a bundle folder called 'T7G_data_all.bundle'. Vanilla ScummVM detects and starts the game (tried both windows and osx builds). The main menu is black, but you can hear the music and see the mouse cursor, and start the game. It plays the intro video, but throws a few errors (see screenshot). It appears it can not find all the audio files, so there are sometimes no voic
[12:19] <DrMcCoy> L0ngcat: Your message is cut off after "so there are sometimes no voic". IRC has a max message length of 512 bytes (including PRIVMSG and the channel name)
[12:20] <L0ngcat> no voices or music. I assume there is some restructuring of the assets, but have not looked further into it. The sound all seems to be stored in mp3 and ogg, and there is a new, remastered version of the soundtrack.
[12:21] <L0ngcat> https://pasteboard.co/I8zAm6L.png
[12:22] <L0ngcat> according to steam, the upscaling is done by '- High-end graphics upscaling (xBRZ filter) for high-resolution display'
[12:22] <DrMcCoy> "Image not found"
[12:23] <L0ngcat> ?
[12:23] <DrMcCoy> Ah, it wants a real referer, nevermind
[12:23] <L0ngcat> I just clicked on it
[12:23] <L0ngcat> ok
[12:23] <L0ngcat> :)
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[12:24] <L0ngcat> looks like most of the new resources are stored outside the bundle, like the new main menu, cursors, sounds an such. And there is an endless amount of dll files
[12:24] <DrMcCoy> Does it come with source?
[12:25] <L0ngcat> I highly doubt it, but if so, how can I tell?
[12:25] <DrMcCoy> Is there a zip or something with the installed resources that contain .h and .cpp files?
[12:26] <DrMcCoy> Does the README say anything about how to obtain the sources?
[12:26] <DrMcCoy> Because if it doesn't, that's a violation of the GPL. It needs to come with the sources or a "written offer" to provide the sources
[12:27] <DrMcCoy> At least if it's true what the developer said on the Steam forums, that it's based on ScummVM (and I'm assuming it is true)
[12:28] <DrMcCoy> So I guess our ScummVM leadership should probably officially ask them for sources
[12:30] <stroggoff> the save files go to a saved games folder (Steam edition) and there is a t7g.ini in there that is basically a ScummVM ini file
[12:30] <L0ngcat> no, seems everything is compiled
[12:30] <L0ngcat> only conventional file formats
[12:30] <stroggoff> DrMcCoy, at least in the Steam version, there is an assets folder
[12:31] <L0ngcat> there is no readme afaik
[12:31] <stroggoff> and they have SteamAuthors.html and a GPL.html etc in there
[12:31] <L0ngcat> there is a EULA, but it seems to be generic for all gog games
[12:32] <stroggoff> I meant *ScummVMAuthors.html
[12:33] <L0ngcat> seems like the original game wrapped up with some new features and a custom build of SVM to me
[12:38] <L0ngcat> But I can find no mention of ScummVM in the gog version, and as mentioned, there are a hell of a lot of dll dependencies, so I am not 100% sure
[12:38] <L0ngcat> the exe file is around 8.2 mb
[12:39] <stroggoff> L0ngcat, I can also take a look in the GOG in a few minutes. GOG galaxy is downloading mine now
[12:40] <L0ngcat> good, I have to do some work and can't really spend more time on it right now
[12:41] <L0ngcat> but I just opened the exe in hex, and it does mention ScummVM for savegame ids, so it must be at least based on it
[12:42] <stroggoff> I'm on my lunch break, so not much time either really. But I expect it to be fairly obvious if they provide what's expected by the GPL license
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[12:43] <stroggoff> L0ngcat, I can see in my GOG installation that there is the Assets/T7G folder
[12:43] <L0ngcat> found at least 10 instances of 'ScummVM' as text in the exe, so yes, it would be safe to assume so
[12:43] <stroggoff> where they credit ScummVM team and mention the GPL
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[13:12] <stroggoff> On an unrelated matter
[13:12] <mataniko> is it a free update or separate purchase
[13:13] <stroggoff> The fonts that are in out github repository are not actually fallback fonts correct?
[13:13] <stroggoff> mataniko, are you talking about T7G classic "legacy" edition
[13:14] <stroggoff> The new Anniversary is not a free update
[13:14] <stroggoff> But they include the classic T7G "for free"
[13:14] <mataniko> weak
[13:14] <stroggoff> I know
[13:15] <stroggoff> They offer a considerable discount though, so I got it anyway. It was like less than 1.5 euros for me
[13:16] <stroggoff> because I also had some wallet funds from their (now defunct) Fair Price Package
[13:17] <stroggoff> About the fonts though. Those are not directly used for anything, are they?
[13:17] <stroggoff> the ones here: https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/tree/master/gui/themes/fonts
[13:21] <mataniko> I thought I owned t7g on one of these but can't find it
[13:21] <mataniko> I was sure it was given for free
[13:22] <mataniko> wow the upscaling looks terrible
[13:23] <mataniko> because of the video artifacts, everything looks like a watercolor painting
[13:23] <mataniko> due to the extreme smoothing
[13:24] <stroggoff> I switched to classic graphics as soon as the game allowed me too. But the upscaling still seemed a bit blurry -- more pixelized sure but still bad. This game was not to be played in large resolutions
[13:26] <DrMcCoy> Legallyy, they must either provide the source code directly or a least "written offer". Usually, companies create a "GPL" subpage on their homepage where you can download a zip of the full source with all their changes
[13:26] <DrMcCoy> Which is not ideal, imho, but enough legally. As long as it is the "complete corresponding source code"
[13:27] <DrMcCoy> Just saying "It's ScummVM" is not enough, especially when they have changes
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[13:31] <DrMcCoy> So I think _sev or Strangerke|work should probably write the people at MojoTouch an email that they should please provide the complete corresponding source code of the The 7th Guest: 25th Anniversary Edition, preferably somewhere public, and add a written offer for the source code to their documentation and/or store pages
[13:32] <mataniko> Wouldn't be only the modified parts?
[13:32] <_sev> DrMcCoy: http://mojo-touch.com/GPL/
[13:33] <stroggoff> ^^ I was just going to link to that
[13:33] <mataniko> this is based on the 20th anniversary version btw
[13:33] <stroggoff> They don't have the 7th guest 25th Aniiversary
[13:33] <DrMcCoy> Ah, nice, but that's not the correct one, I think
[13:33] <stroggoff> but the 20th anniversary is there
[13:33] <_sev> which version are you referring to? gog.com?
[13:34] <DrMcCoy> https://store.steampowered.com/app/1044340/The_7th_Guest_25th_Anniversary_Edition/
[13:34] <stroggoff> gog.com and steam both have the 25th Anniversary
[13:34] <stroggoff> The 20th Anniversary is only for mobile I think
[13:35] <_sev> ok, I'll talk to them, thanks for the heads up
[13:35] <DrMcCoy> (At least that means they probably didn't intent for any violation, so that's good)
[13:36] <mataniko> Here's where I don't get the GPL
[13:36] <mataniko> if commercial use is allowed, why do source code changes matter, specifically in our case
[13:37] <mataniko> wouldn't it be simpler to just have a permissive license
[13:37] <stroggoff> because they could be possible improvements for the base code probably
[13:37] <DrMcCoy> The idea behind the GPL is that all changes, all improvements, should benefit the commons
[13:38] <stroggoff> _sev, weren't you working on subtitles support for the groovie engine?
[13:38] <mataniko> and in reality in almost 20 years, have we seen or incorporated anything major?
[13:38] <_sev> I was
[13:38] <stroggoff> was that complete? Is the new version's subtitle support based on your code?
[13:39] <DrMcCoy> mataniko: Are you talking GPL software in general, or ScummVM in specifics?
[13:39] <mataniko> ScummVM
[13:40] <stroggoff> by "new" I mean since the 20th Anniversary because that one had subtitles support too
[13:41] <DrMcCoy> mataniko: Frankly, not sure. The changes done for the mobile ports of the Gobliiins games were unusable, true, because that was just a complete hack-fest
[13:41] <DrMcCoy> But I can't speak for anybody else :P
[13:42] <mataniko> I believe even these subtitles are an external format
[13:42] <mataniko> which users wouldn't have access to
[13:43] <mataniko> sev, I don't know if you're open to discuss but maybe we just switch to apache/mit license and not have to worry about this anymore
[13:43] <DrMcCoy> lol
[13:43] <DrMcCoy> That's easier said than done
[13:43] <mataniko> worrying? it's easy to stop worrying :)
[13:43] <DrMcCoy> That would require the permission of everybody who contributed to ScummVM, ever
[13:44] <DrMcCoy> Relicensing is a *major* hassle
[13:44] <mataniko> You're not relicensing older versions
[13:45] <DrMcCoy> That's not how copyright and licenses work
[13:45] <mataniko> depends on the GPL wording
[13:45] <DrMcCoy> You can relicense your own contributions, yes. But you can't relicense anybody else's code
[13:47] <DrMcCoy> What you'd need for that is copyright assignment. That's what the FSF requires of you for official GNU projects. So that they can relicense should they ever want to move to something other than the GPL
[13:47] <Strangerke|work> It's better if _sev writes the mail. When I write to them, they ignore the mail
[13:48] <Strangerke|work> (sorry, I am a bit late)
[13:48] <_sev> I already contacted
[13:48] <_sev> they promised to put the sources today
[13:48] <DrMcCoy> Nice :)
[13:48] <mataniko> what a pain in the butt
[13:48] <_sev> I told them it is not acceptable
[13:50] <DrMcCoy> mataniko: VLC relicensed from GPL to LGPL a few years ago. See http://www.jbkempf.com/blog/post/2012/How-to-properly-relicense-a-large-open-source-project and the two follow-ups linked at the bottom of each post
[13:51] <mataniko> VLC's problem stems from the fact they are France based, which has author rights instead of copyrights
[13:51] <mataniko> in the US any contribution would mean it falls under the ScummVM org copyright
[13:51] <mataniko> and you don't own that contribution directly
[13:52] <DrMcCoy> Nope
[13:52] <DrMcCoy> ScummVM is not a valid legal entity
[13:52] <DrMcCoy> Not in the US, not anywhere
[13:52] <DrMcCoy> There *is* no ScummVM org, as such
[13:53] <DrMcCoy> For example, the reason the FSF can even receive copyright assignments is because they're a registered organization, a 501(3)c charitable organization
[13:53] <DrMcCoy> 501(c)3
[13:55] <DrMcCoy> And FSF Europe is an eingetragener Verein in Germany, with corresponding registrations in many different EU countries
[13:57] <DrMcCoy> Each ScummVM developer (of which the majority are in the EU, IIRC, we only have a handful of US people) retains the full copyright of their contributions
[13:58] <mataniko> ok let's assume that's the case
[13:58] <DrMcCoy> I mean, it *is* the case
[13:58] <mataniko> is there an interest in pursuring a license change
[13:59] <DrMcCoy> Personally, I'd be vehemently *against* a license change towards a more permissive license
[13:59] <mataniko> why
[13:59] <DrMcCoy> I'd be in favour of moving to the GPLv3, or even the AGPLv3
[13:59] <mataniko> we can move to GPL3 without any notice
[13:59] <DrMcCoy> Yes
[14:00] <DrMcCoy> Thanks to the "or later" clause
[14:00] <Strangerke|work> If we move to GPLv3, it'll be a problem for several Linux distro
[14:00] <DrMcCoy> And the GPLv3, I think, explictly allows moving the AGPLv3, but I'm not 100% certain
[14:00] <DrMcCoy> Strangerke|work: You sure?
[14:01] <DrMcCoy> Strangerke|work: I *know* it's going to be a problem for app stores
[14:01] <Strangerke|work> That's what some linux package guys told me at least
[14:01] <DrMcCoy> Weird
[14:01] <Strangerke|work> (which means they may be wrong)
[14:02] <DrMcCoy> It's not going to be a problem for Debian or Ubuntu, or Arch or Gentoo.
[14:02] <DrMcCoy> But there might be a distro out there that doesn't want GPLv3
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[14:03] <mataniko> That just means it wont be packaged in their package manager
[14:03] <DrMcCoy> Yes
[14:03] <mataniko> meh
[14:04] <Strangerke|work> Could you remind me what are the benefits of GPLv3? When Stallman exposed it at Fosdem, it looked like the thing we must have, then half the devs were strongly opposed to it and we stopped talking about it... And I forgot
[14:05] <DrMcCoy> The main draw of the GPLv3 is the "anti-tivozation" clause. If somebody, for example, sells a hardware device with ScummVM burnt into the firmware, so that users can't replace the ScummVM build
[14:06] <mataniko> LEC-Mini
[14:06] <DrMcCoy> The would not violate the GPLv2, if that somebody provides the source, even if it's useless for changing the build that runs on the device
[14:07] <DrMcCoy> While it would violate the GPLv3, because the user must have the freedom to change and adapt the distributed binary
[14:09] <DrMcCoy> There's a few other changes, clearing up the language of what's a valid way to provide the source, the patent grant is, I think, expanded. But these are just minor "quality of life" changes
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[14:10] <DrMcCoy> Similar for the AGPLv3, it adds a clause to expand that "distributing" the software is also done by providing access to a service over the network
[14:11] <DrMcCoy> I.e. if somebody has ScummVM running on a remote server, and only allows web access to it, under the GPLv2 and GPLv3, they don't have to provide the sources. Under the AGPLv3, they do
[14:12] <DrMcCoy> Both of these clauses don't really apply to ScummVM, so staying GPLv2 isn't really all that much of a problem
[14:15] <DrMcCoy> So while I think it would be nice to switch, I don't view it as critical. A "LEC-mini", or an emscripted service that allows you to play the games (or a Google Stadia thing) are possible, but not really likely
[14:16] <DrMcCoy> And even then, it's probably already too late. Somebody could just base the LEC-Mini, or a Monkey Island running through Google Stadia, off of an older version of ScummVM that was still GPLv2+
[14:17] <DrMcCoy> Because these games are essentially "finished" in ScummVM
[14:19] <DrMcCoy> Engines that are still in development, or future engines, they would benefit. But that also makes a hardware device or a Google Stadia build, more unlikely
[14:20] <Strangerke|work> ok, thanks for the explanation
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[14:56] <_sev> DrMcCoy: the sources are up
[15:00] <mataniko> the long arm of the sev
[15:11] <DrMcCoy> _sev: Nice :)
[15:19] <_sev> now it;s time for somebody to analyse and implement the differences
[15:20] <mataniko> I volunteer DrMcCoy :)
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[15:22] <DrMcCoy> Would have been great if they at least said what version they're forking off of
[15:23] <DanMagor> Hello There! Am I in?
[15:23] <DrMcCoy> According to the NEWS file, it's before the 1.8.0 release
[15:23] <DanMagor> The channel didn't ask password, so that's why I am asking
[15:25] <LePhilousophe> DanMagor: you are in
[15:26] <DanMagor> Thanks! Is it a right place to ask questions about Google Summer of Code?
[15:31] <DrMcCoy> Should be around 7661b8adfccde8190dc795c71033014f486cf800-ish that they forked it from
[15:32] <DrMcCoy> These changes do no make me happy. Lots of (wrong) indent changes, like removing all indentation before comments. Why
[15:38] <DrMcCoy> I don't really know enough about the groovie engine to really say much, though :P
[15:39] <DrMcCoy> But it looks similar to what I've seen in previous change source drops: changes just hacked in, without much thought put into it
[15:40] <DrMcCoy> Commented out debug printfs stuff left in, etc.
[15:41] <DrMcCoy> If they had it in source control, they probably just checked in changes without rhyme or reason, too
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[15:47] <stroggoff> Maybe the subtitles code would worth a look
[15:47] <stroggoff> also they claim that they made the transitions smoother so that could be something
[15:48] <stroggoff> I could offer to look into that after the Blade Runner work is done / reaches a more relaxed phase
[15:49] <stroggoff> Also I had a quick look at the "original script" that they offer with the extras. There are some stuff there that would make the game much better (probably, depending on the implementation of course).
[15:50] <stroggoff> Like, there are cutscenes in the game that make little sense and that's because they are just half of what they were supposed to be
[15:50] <stroggoff> such a pity
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[18:10] <Scummette> [scummvm] antoniou79 pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/fjLOB
[18:10] <Scummette> scummvm/master f047050 antoniou79: BLADERUNNER: Support wait for dialogue queues to finish
[18:21] <peterkohaut> btw. i dont know if anybody noticed but ghidra sources as available on github with decompiler and everything... all under apache 2 license
[18:24] <SupSuper> oh did they finally put the source on there? nice
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[18:58] <Strangerke> awesome :)
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[21:58] <Deledrius> peterkohaut, thanks! I haven't seen that yet, just the original release.
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[00:00] --- Fri Apr 5 2019