ScummVM IRC Log - 03 Jun 2020

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[01:34] <Scummette> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 59 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfPnl
[01:34] <Scummette> scummvm/master 5d88380 dreammaster: GLK: COMPREHEND: Skeleton engine
[01:34] <Scummette> scummvm/master 7423561 dreammaster: GLK: COMPREHEND: Adding recomprehend source files
[01:34] <Scummette> scummvm/master 8a9ef1a dreammaster: GLK: COMPREHEND: Adding startup code, cleanup
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[01:38] <Lightkey> Welp.
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[01:39] <dreammaster> Comprehend is still a work in progress, but I feel enough progress had been done to merge it into master
[01:46] <grogbot> <trembyle> Is this based on recomprehend?
[01:46] <grogbot> <trembyle> Is it part of any other GLK implementation?
[01:46] <dreammaster> Yes indeed
[01:47] <grogbot> <trembyle> I'd never heard of these games before. Just started looking at it.
[01:47] <grogbot> <trembyle> Very graphics heavy compared to some of the other sub-engines.
[01:47] <dreammaster> It's based on Recomprehend; there's still some functionality missing, and screen rendering doesn't work all the time, so I'll need to do some further disassembling of the original games
[01:48] <dreammaster> They were kind of interesting. I actually played Translyvania back in my youth back on my Apple//e. They had a cool (for the time) screen image compression where the screen was rendered by drawing various lines and flood fill areas.
[01:49] <dreammaster> It was slow enough that you can actually see the screens being rendered when played under DosBox or on the Apple//e
[01:50] <dreammaster> Word of warning: I still need to finish savegame support, since I want it to handle Crimson Crown having two "disk" files, so they're not ready for any serious playing
[01:50] <grogbot> <trembyle> I guess that's how the ADL / AGI games originally looked. People were more patient back then.
[01:51] <dreammaster> We had to live with 64Kb of memory space back in the //e days, with an optional extra 64Kb if you were lucky enough to have the memory expansion card.
[01:51] <dreammaster> Games couldn't afford not to have compression of some form for game screens
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[01:52] <grogbot> <trembyle> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/717556939466473482/184610-the-crimson-crown-apple-ii-screenshot-guess-who-s-in-the-box.gif
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[01:52] <grogbot> <trembyle> scary
[01:53] <grogbot> <trembyle> oh you can't see embeds, sorry
[01:53] <dreammaster> No worry. The IRC bridge gives me a URL I can open in a browser
[01:54] <grogbot> <sluicebox> apologies for dropping paragraph in the middle of a legit techincal discussion 😃
[01:54] <grogbot> <sluicebox> Hello everyone, I'm back home in Los Angeles and (hopefully!) responsive on discord. This is funny timing, because although you wouldn't think that preserving point and click adventure games is political, I've always drawn one annoyingly political boundary on this project, which a few of you have had to suffer my saying: I won't help Daryl Gates' Police Quest games run. When this has come up I've found that Europeans, whom are the
[01:54] <grogbot> most likely the ones I'm talking to, don't know why that is. They've never heard of the man and that's understandable. I don't want to be cheap and say "well look it up" but at the same time I'm not qualified to ambassador these deep American problems across cultural boundaries over cheap internet chat. I'll just say now, that as a concrete example, the very reasons that I won't do that are the very reasons that it's now illegal for to step outside
[01:54] <grogbot> my home. There's a 6PM mandatory curfew across Los Angeles county and in some places it's an hour earlier. You'll know I've quit the project when I do a commit that removes all the Daryl Gates Police Quet games from the detection entries, but that won't happen, because I'm in this for life.
[01:54] <grogbot> <trembyle> welcome back!
[01:54] <grogbot> <trembyle> someone actually asked about SWAT yesterday
[01:55] <grogbot> <trembyle> I wanted to say we're dropping support
[01:55] <grogbot> <sluicebox> hahah I know but they are from the other side of the world so I forgive them!
[01:55] <grogbot> <sluicebox> but i did instictively say "READ THE ROOM" ouy loud and then have to explain that outburt to everyone in my room
[01:57] <grogbot> <trembyle> It's illegal to go outside here too. Things are scary right now.
[01:59] <grogbot> <sluicebox> Other than taking care of loved ones, giving money to the right people, voting for the less wrong people, and making adventure games work, I don't know what else to do
[01:59] <grogbot> <sluicebox> So I guess the good news is that we're going to make some adventure games work!
[02:00] <grogbot> <trembyle> You are making the world a better place 🙂
[02:00] <dreammaster> Agreed
[02:01] <grogbot> <sluicebox> i really liked when Ron Gilbert said that the world would be a more peaceful place if more of us spent our time playing adventure games. the numbers add up!
[02:02] <grogbot> <sluicebox> bonus, and i'm going off distanct memory, but i think he was talking about scummvm when he said that
[02:04] <Lightkey> sluicebox: What about Police Quest: SWAT? Can you at least confirm the status? Because AFAICS, it was never included in any testing season (I don't know about version 2.0.0, where it was added to the compatibility page as untested because someone had the great idea of using Google spreadsheets on the wiki for release testing, so all the information is gone now) but it looks to me like it was a mistake and
[02:04] <Lightkey> another to mark it as Good for 2.1.0 since that implies official support..
[02:04] <grogbot> <sluicebox> yes i'm happy to go technical and talk about what i've seen
[02:04] <grogbot> <sluicebox> because i have used the DG pq games as a testing tool as i've been chippinhg away at SCI32 Mac support
[02:05] <grogbot> <sluicebox> i'm under the impression, from md5 i think, that the SWAT game has an action scene that doesn't work
[02:06] <grogbot> <sluicebox> and that it's not a minor scripting thing, but that the game may step outside the normal SCI engine to do some custom stuff which hasn't been implemented
[02:07] <Lightkey> Actually, the testing announcement for 2.0 in the news archive has the full list and Police Quest: SWAT is not on there, so that settles it.
[02:07] <Scummette> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfPcG
[02:07] <Scummette> scummvm/master 99dffa8 dreammaster: GLK: COMPREHEND: Fix naming of game virtual methods
[02:07] <Scummette> scummvm/master 54e16ae dreammaster: GLK: COMPREHEND: Cleanup of game classes
[02:08] <grogbot> <sluicebox> that wouldn't be unprecedented. HOLYE5, a card game for goodness' sake, is a normal SCI game except for the "artificial inteligence" in the poker player oppoents. that's implemented in a native c/c++ dll (and a Mac library file) which the script calls OUT, into, and then back. it's wild
[02:09] <grogbot> <sluicebox> right but the question is "why" aren't these things included, and sometimes you know we chip away and nobody ever notes that "oh my gosh, we're done!"
[02:10] <grogbot> <sluicebox> but i'm under the impression that there's an entire action section or something that needs to be implemented. understandably, i haven't played past the first couple menu screens
[02:11] <dreammaster> You could always do like what I did for Hopkins FBI's Doom-clone section.. just put up a static screen saying "action stuff happens here.. and we don't want to bother doing it" :)
[02:11] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 3aacc800: Failure: master-openpandora, master-3ds, master-amigaos4, master-psp2full, master-ios, master-mingw-w32, master-ps3, master-osx_intel
[02:12] <grogbot> <trembyle> Funny, I'm sure it worked in OS/2
[02:12] <grogbot> <sluicebox> right! for all i know that's even the case and we do have a message like that, i'm just not the one who is going to play through and confirm/disconfirm [ i love typing disconfirm ]
[02:12] <dreammaster> A few of the versions actually did ditch the Doom stuff in favour of a map. I guess the porters had more sense then the original developers :P
[02:13] <grogbot> <trembyle> actually I think the OS/2 version came first. It seems to be a "beta" released on CD. Maybe they hadn't finished that part yet.
[02:14] <grogbot> <trembyle> I can't disconfirm
[02:14] <dreammaster> Heh. Then I consider it case of a beta being better than the finished version
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[02:14] <travis-ci> scummvm/scummvm#13714 (master - 3aacc80 : Paul Gilbert): The build was broken.
[02:14] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/compare/41e38d700df1...3aacc800a964
[02:14] <travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/scummvm/scummvm/builds/694083968
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[02:15] <grogbot> <sluicebox> But if you can stomach it, go a head and SWAT, and file a but report. I won't help but I would like to know what the technical piece is that's missing
[02:17] <grogbot> <sluicebox> On a happier note, quarantine gave me an opportunity to write a much less embarassing script parser that fuels my silly internal tools, so we're well on our way to fixing all SCI bugs! 😃
[02:18] <grogbot> <trembyle> nice!
[02:19] <grogbot> <trembyle> then what? you said you're in this for life, but at some point there will be no more SCI bugs.
[02:19] <grogbot> <sluicebox> lol I'M BETTING THAT WON'T BE TRUE
[02:19] <grogbot> <sluicebox> #longTail
[02:20] <grogbot> <sluicebox> i've got a SQ5 carshbug i think is impossible to fix. how many decades will THAT take??
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[02:22] <travis-ci> scummvm/scummvm#13715 (master - 54e16ae : Paul Gilbert): The build was broken.
[02:22] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/compare/3aacc800a964...54e16ae6dd66
[02:22] <travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/scummvm/scummvm/builds/694089107
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[02:24] <grogbot> <trembyle> why impossible?
[02:24] <grogbot> <trembyle> impossible how?
[02:26] <grogbot> <sluicebox> they should haven't let you immediately go back somewhere
[02:26] <grogbot> <sluicebox> but then later it's okay
[02:27] <grogbot> <sluicebox> every time i see it in the list, i'm like "oh okay i know more now that should be easy" bwahahaha it's not. and it's just an edge case, but adventure games be design breed edge cases, so there's always something to fix
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[02:34] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 3aacc800: Failure: master-dingux, master-gcw0, master-mingw-w64, master-debian-x86_64
[02:56] <Scummette> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfPCM
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[03:09] <travis-ci> scummvm/scummvm#13716 (master - 9d8bee1 : Paul Gilbert): The build was fixed.
[03:09] <travis-ci> Change view : https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/compare/54e16ae6dd66...9d8bee116501
[03:09] <travis-ci> Build details : https://travis-ci.org/scummvm/scummvm/builds/694097337
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[03:12] <Scummette> scummvm/master 9d8bee1 dreammaster: GLK: COMPREHEND: Compilation fixes
[03:12] <Scummette> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfPCF
[03:12] <Scummette> scummvm/master 55b64c0 dreammaster: GLK: COMPREHEND: astyle formatting
[03:33] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 9d8bee11: Success: master-3ds, master-psp2full, master-ios, master-mingw-w32, master-ps3
[03:40] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 9d8bee11: Success: master-mingw-w64, master-debian-x86_64
[03:58] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 55b64c05: Success: master-amigaos4
[05:32] Nick change: Deledrius_ -> Deledrius
[05:44] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 55b64c05: Failure: master-osx_x64
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[07:07] <grogbot> <waltervn> The last PS2 release binary we did seems to be 1.7.0. Also, GCC 3.2.3 was released on April 25, 2003. I think we should just drop this port and if a new porter comes along it could be revived with a more modern toolchain
[07:20] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> @waltervn I didn't plan when I did this commit to go to a drop the port conclusion
[07:21] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> I am not really pleased with such an issue as it looks like a defeat for me 😐
[07:21] <grogbot> <waltervn> if we want to keep this GCC 3.2.3 we can abort any and all c++11 talk right now
[07:21] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> yep that's true
[07:22] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> question is more about this: do we want to drop all ports which don't support C++11?
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[07:22] <grogbot> <waltervn> I think we should upgrade toolchains where possible. But if there's no porter...
[07:24] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> more than no porter: after a quick look, I found ps2dev which is still using gcc 3.2.3
[07:24] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> upgraded newlib but nothing more
[07:24] <grogbot> <waltervn> yes, but there are some people working on newer toolchains
[07:24] <Deledrius> Would that require only someone willing to update the port, or someone willing to be a new maintainer?
[07:25] <grogbot> <waltervn> there's some stuff here: https://gitlab.com/ps2max/toolchain/gcc no idea what the state is or if it's even usable, of course
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[07:28] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> Deledrius I suppose someone who can update the port and test it
[07:29] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> I could try to get a new toolchain for PS2 but I won't be able to test it on real hardware
[07:29] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> I don't even know how it's supposed to run, CD? network?
[07:30] <Deledrius> I have the real hardware right here, and have played ScummVM on it in the past.
[07:30] <grogbot> <waltervn> I think we should probably just ask the ps2 dev community what, if any, more modern compiler we could be using
[07:31] <grogbot> <waltervn> we wouldn't need anything super recent either, like a GCC 4.8 or something would probably do fine
[07:31] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> the more recent, the best 🙂
[07:31] <grogbot> <waltervn> Yes, but I'd probably prefer to use something tried-and-tested, if it exists
[07:32] <Deledrius> Indeed
[07:32] <grogbot> <waltervn> I did some dreamcast homebrew stuff way back when, and the compilers were extremely fragile
[07:32] <grogbot> <waltervn> you'd be swapping lines of code around, hoping to avoid an ICE, stuff like that
[07:32] <grogbot> <waltervn> it wasn't fun 😛
[07:34] <grogbot> <waltervn> of course the PS2 CPU might be more common and better supported
[07:34] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> nah
[07:34] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> it's a specific IP
[07:34] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> IIRC
[07:34] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> https://www.psx-place.com/threads/wip-updated-homebrew-toolchain-for-ps2.20539/ some thread about ps2max
[07:35] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> maybe it could worth a try
[07:35] <grogbot> <waltervn> yes, that's how I found the repo actually
[07:37] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> I won't be able to do something about it before the week-end so I don't know if I have to patch for to make buildbot happy
[07:37] <grogbot> <waltervn> there's other branches there though, 5.3.0 etc. if any of those are considered stable, I'd prefer those over some cutting edge thing
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[07:40] <Deledrius> If I can help build/test an updated PS2 toolset+ScummVM, just ping me
[07:41] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> yep thank you
[07:42] <grogbot> <waltervn> who was the porter for ps2 btw?
[07:42] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> some posts in the forum are really scary, it seems that anything above 3.2.3 is failing with some instructions
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[07:47] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> @waltervn according to the REAMDE, Max Lingua (sunmax)
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[07:57] <grogbot> <waltervn> looks like he hasn't been around in over 6 years. We could perhaps try to reach out to him, see if he has any plans to pick this up again?
[07:57] Nick change: ldevulder_ -> ldevulder
[08:01] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> @waltervn seems like ps2max is really a fresh work and could need some wait before being usable
[08:03] <grogbot> <waltervn> seems quite possible yes. I do think it could be worth checking in with them and asking if there's anything GCC 4.8 or newer that we could use. If the answer is no, I think we should abandon our PS2 port
[08:03] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> they are working on gcc 9, 10 or 11 it seems
[08:03] <grogbot> <waltervn> yes but in that thread I also see people mentoning GCC 5 and 6 for example
[08:04] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> yes that's older posts
[08:04] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> posts from last march mention gcc 9 almost working
[08:04] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> with problems on ABI
[08:07] <grogbot> <waltervn> Yes, I see now these posts aren't as old as I thought, I was looking at join dates 😉
[08:07] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> problems seem to really be with old PS2 projects with assembly
[08:07] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> hehe classic error 😄
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[08:27] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Good morning
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[08:28] <grogbot> <antoniou79> The discussion in this PR https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/pull/2298 got me thinking...
[08:28] <grogbot> <antoniou79> Shouldn't our release builds not include the asserts?
[08:29] <grogbot> <antoniou79> I mean for the specific one in the PR, I've put it inside a macro that is defined only when the "--enable-release" is used with configure
[08:29] <grogbot> <antoniou79> but in general our asserts() do not have this guarding
[08:34] <grogbot> <antoniou79> So afaik all our release builds end up including the asserts, which could impact speed
[08:44] <grogbot> <waltervn> it does seem odd to do this just for that one assert, we must have hundreds of them
[08:48] <grogbot> <waltervn> just look at Common::Array for example
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[10:27] <grogbot> <madmoose> @antoniou79 In general release builds should define NDEBUG which causes the assert macro to do nothing. No idea what happens in ScummVM specifically.
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[10:35] <grogbot> <antoniou79> As far as I can tell, we don't define NDEBUG in the configure script for release builds
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[11:34] <grogbot> <lephilousophe> it all depends on what we use assert for. I use it for debugging and ensure things go like expected but it may be used to abort when a condition is false. In this case we must not define NDEBUG
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[12:00] <grogbot> <Henke37> yes, do not define NDEBUG in debug builds.
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[12:24] <grogbot> <madmoose> assert shouldnt be used to check that, for instance, data files are correct. But we (me too) do all the time.
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[14:07] <Scummette> [scummvm] moralrecordings pushed 3 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfP1j
[14:07] <Scummette> scummvm/master 56069ac moralrecordings: DIRECTOR: LINGO: Implement kTheMovie
[14:07] <Scummette> scummvm/master 0c97ec1 moralrecordings: DIRECTOR: LINGO: Let scripts finish executing before stopping
[14:07] <Scummette> scummvm/master 8d50d85 moralrecordings: DIRECTOR: Implement playSoundChannel
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[14:45] <grogbot> <antoniou79> > yes, do not define NDEBUG in debug builds. @Henke37 The point being that we should define it only in release builds, as it's meant to be (and as written above), or are you saying something else?
[14:47] <grogbot> <Henke37> i said what i said.
[14:58] <grogbot> <antoniou79> ofcourse you did
[15:07] <Scummette> [scummvm] moralrecordings pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfPyp
[15:07] <Scummette> scummvm/master fef2d2f moralrecordings: DIRECTOR: Implement kTheVolume
[15:07] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 8d50d855: Success: master-osx_x64
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[15:39] <Scummette> [scummvm] ScummVM-Translations pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfP9I
[15:39] <Scummette> scummvm/master f089497 : I18N: Update translation (Polish)
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[16:02] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> OMG: I love the folder support in the new IDA. Why wasn't it added years ago. My disassembly of the Transylvania game revealed it uses a complicated overlay-like system to have different plugin scene renderers.. It's so nice being able to group methods for the main executable vs the plugin, which I added as another segment. Much cleaner than hacks like adding prefixes to all the methods to try and group them together.
[16:06] <Scummette> [scummvm] moralrecordings pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfPHd
[16:06] <Scummette> scummvm/master c550f99 moralrecordings: DIRECTOR: Check for undefined audio data before playing
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[16:54] <Scummette> [scummvm] moralrecordings pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfP7F
[16:54] <Scummette> scummvm/master fd02d0a moralrecordings: DIRECTOR: Fix idle event from preventing exit
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[17:49] <grogbot> <Henke37> https://pastebin.com/16jpYm3W
[17:57] <grogbot> <Henke37> say, shouldn't this be listed on the demos download page? https://archive.org/details/Voyeur_demo
[18:13] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> It should, though the question is also whether it will work under ScummVM. We don't currently have a detection entry for the demo; I'll check it out tonight to see whether it'll work or not
[18:17] <grogbot> <Henke37> on that note, apparently there was a sequel? does that run on the same engine?
[18:20] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> No idea. I never looked at it. I did the first game mostly because the original had full debug information embedded in it, so it was easier to generate code for it using a decompiler, and then apply fixes, cleanups, and generally make a ScummVM engine out of it.
[18:20] <grogbot> <trembyle> The Windows + Mac versions of Voyeur 2 are Director.
[18:20] <grogbot> <trembyle> The DOS version had its own engine.
[18:20] <grogbot> <Henke37> well, looks like part of it is being taken care of right now then
[18:21] <grogbot> <trembyle> They are D6, so it will take some time.
[18:21] <grogbot> <Henke37> oh.
[18:21] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Agreed, I leave it to others, and ignore the DOS version.
[18:21] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> @trembyle No worries.. I'm sure no one is waiting for it too eagerly
[18:21] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Apart from Henke37 it seems 😉
[18:22] <grogbot> <Henke37> nah, i am in no hurry to play this one
[18:24] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Ah, good. No hurry then
[18:41] <Scummette> [scummvm] djsrv opened pull request #2304: DIRECTOR: LINGO: Implement kTheImmediate (master...director-immediate) https://git.io/JfPbp
[18:43] <Scummette> [scummvm] djsrv opened pull request #2305: DIRECTOR: LINGO: Fix loadScriptText (master...director-scripttext) https://git.io/JfPNk
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[18:52] <grogbot> <Henke37> i gave the demo a try. it is detected as the full game. and it crashes in engine code when i try to start it
[18:54] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Thanks for checking. So that confirms that it would need some work to differentiate the demo, and then figure out what's not available, and make allowances in the engine code itself.
[18:55] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> I'll have a look tonight and see if it's anything that can be done quickly, but if not, I'll leave it as a future open task to anyone that gets interested
[18:56] <grogbot> <trembyle> Also, a lot of people are asking about support for the CD-i version 😉
[18:56] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> That's definitely outside of my sphere of expertise, and interest for that matter
[18:57] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Plus I have quite enough to keep me busy
[18:58] <grogbot> <trembyle> I guess they'll survive
[18:58] <grogbot> <trembyle> somehow
[18:58] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Tell them to test the Ultima games instead 🙂
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[19:17] <grogbot> <timofonic> I hope someone resurrects AGS for ScummVM and more developers join the effort. I have a dream : Soon I'll have a proper computer again, so I can continue to learn computer programming again too...
[19:18] <grogbot> <timofonic> I'm interested in the older AGS games, I started playing them in DOS
[19:20] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Likewise. As I mentioned in my recent blog posting, I had tentative plans to finally look into earlier AGS support later this year. Though since Strangerke discovered a Shannara demo with debug symbols, AGS may be pushed back somewhat whilst I spend time on it.
[19:22] <grogbot> <timofonic> I see
[19:22] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Even if it is delayed, I'll get to it eventually if no-one else does
[19:22] <grogbot> <timofonic> Legend Entertainment!!!!
[19:23] <grogbot> <timofonic> Thanks!
[19:23] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Thanks for understanding :). The Legend games have been something I
[19:24] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> I've wanted to do for years. Honestly, I'm more a fan of the earlier games like Gateway, but implementing support for the later games may provide valuable insights on the older engine, presuming the later point and click games were an evolution of the earlier engine rather than a complete redesign
[19:26] <grogbot> <timofonic> Did you contact Bob Bates contact? I hope he's still alive...
[19:27] <grogbot> <timofonic> Who owns the copyrights? Because what happened with Infocom recently...
[19:29] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> He is, and Strangerke has spent a great deal of effort in contact with them. Whilst it's confirmed he has early game sources, he hasn't been interested in releasing them. At one stage he was apparently hoping to obtain rights for his own re-release of them, but that fell through and he hasn't been particularly responsive since.
[19:30] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> According to the recent release of some of the earlier games on Legend, a company called Ziggurat currently has the rights for at least some of the earlier games
[19:30] <grogbot> <timofonic> I see. Copyright hell :/
[19:31] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Though take my words with a grain of salt, I've got a bad memory in general, and I may be misquoting some of what Strangerke passed on to me
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[19:31] <grogbot> <Bluddy> I don't get that. Releasing the source has nothing to do with getting paid for the game.
[19:32] <grogbot> <Bluddy> Sounds like old-school closed source thinking.
[19:33] <grogbot> <timofonic> Don't worry. I just don't understand the conservative thinking about not releasing source code, specially for an old game. But I didn't live there earlier computer days
[19:33] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Agreed. It may just be that without the possibility of profiting from the games himself, he's not as interested in supporting the gaming community.
[19:36] <grogbot> <Bluddy> But if you made a game, you'd want that game to live on. I think.
[19:36] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> All the above is one reason why I held off working seriously on any of the earlier games for years.. it'd be frustrating to spend all the time reverse engineering all of the games only to eventually get access to original sources. Now with the Shannara demo, the delay may pay off. If it all pans out as an aide for implementing the later games, I can at worst be hopeful it'll prove helpful as an aide for the earlier ones
[19:36] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Agreed; I'd have released the sources if I were him.
[19:42] <grogbot> <ZvikaZ> > I hope someone resurrects AGS for ScummVM and more developers join the effort. I have a dream : > > Soon I'll have a proper computer again, so I can continue to learn computer programming again too... @timofonic You can start without a computer, with a decent book (I'm an old-fashion learner...), or start learning material from the internet, either by reading, or watching.
[20:01] <Strangerke> dreammaster: that makes me think I still have to try to do something with Shannara
[20:01] <Strangerke> dreammaster: the timing is pretty good, I'm mostly done with what I wanted to do with Braindead13's IDB
[20:03] <Strangerke> dreammaster: Concerning Bob Bates, he answers fast each time. But he still hopes to buy the right to the current owner in a distant future... that's pretty it
[20:04] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Thanks. No need to hurry too much. Still a bunch of stuff left to do for Comprehend that requires my own reverse engineering efforts.
[20:05] <Strangerke> I prefer to look at it, otherwise I'll forget
[20:05] <Strangerke> And right now, Space Ace is calling me loud, due to what I found in BD13 ;)
[20:06] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Understandable, especially considering my hopes for Shannara help in the ealrier games eventually
[20:06] <grogbot> <trembyle> @DreamMaster what about Frotz support for z-machine 5 & 6? I know you have a long list.
[20:07] <Strangerke> you may also consider how impatient I'm to work on a heavily hardcoded title with you again :D
[20:11] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> @trembyle Version 5 should work fine as is right now. As for version 6, I actually had started on refactoring the most recent release of Frotz from scratch to work with Glk, with it being in mind to be a specific version for just the v6 games.
[20:12] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> I just got kind of distracted to work on integrating the Recomprehend engine into ScummVM first. I just merged my work into ScummVM master last night. Though it's still a work in progress
[20:12] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> @Strangerke Likewise. Here's hoping the Shannara demo symbols end up being as helpful as I hope they'll be
[20:13] <Strangerke> Well, I'll first look at S301 because it's not watcom
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[20:13] <grogbot> <trembyle> I have trouble with the map in Beyond Zork. I thought this wasn't implemented yet, but maybe I have a bug?
[20:13] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> It'd be a good one to collaborate on
[20:16] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Hmm.. I can't recall any current issues with the map in particular. But if it turns out to be a problem, once I finish the new variation of Frotz for v6, I could always remap Beyond Zork to use it as well
[20:18] <grogbot> <trembyle> Sounds good. In the meantime I can file it as a bug report, just so it doesn't get lost before you eventually get back to Frotz.
[20:19] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- closed pull request #2304: DIRECTOR: LINGO: Implement kTheImmediate (master...director-immediate) https://git.io/JfPbp
[20:19] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfPpE
[20:19] <Scummette> scummvm/master 865201b djsrv: DIRECTOR: LINGO: Implement kTheImmediate
[20:20] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Good idea
[20:22] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Whilst I'm still hopeful my work in Comprehend won't take me too long, it looks like there's some extramissing stuff from Recomprehend, such as the title screen for Transylvania I'm currently work on, and the endgame for Crimson Crown that could also be usefully reverse engineered for completeness. So it'll be better not to forget anything
[20:25] <grogbot> <trembyle> Transylvania III was not Comprehend, right?
[20:27] <grogbot> <trembyle> The box describes it as "A Graphics Adventure" [sic], which is a term I have not encountered.
[20:28] <grogbot> <trembyle> ah, it supports AdLib, so I'm guess that's not Comprehend
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[20:30] <grogbot> <trembyle> well never mind. I guess it is IF that supports VGA and sound cards. I didn't know that was a thing.
[20:30] <grogbot> <trembyle> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/717838268070101028/unknown.png
[20:31] <grogbot> <trembyle> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/581224061091446795/717838515660128366/184142-transylvania-iii-vanquish-the-night-dos-screenshot-velcome.png
[20:35] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> I don't think so, no. The comprehend games look and feel are pretty distinctive, based on them using primitive line drawing and flood fills to render the scene. This looks completely different
[20:36] <grogbot> <trembyle> Maybe "Comprehend Plus" is different.
[20:40] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Seems like. Maybe someone will be interested enough to look into it eventually
[20:43] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Another game engine for old adventures I wouldn't mind seeing, like Comprehend, would be the "the Grahpics Magician" engine games from the Apple//e. One of them, Crypts of Medea, was one of the earliest computer games I ever played. It was a spooky horror game, but given the period, the horror was pixelated and tame enough that I could handle and enjoy it
[20:44] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> https://www.mobygames.com/game-group/graphics-engine-the-graphics-magician
[20:45] <grogbot> <trembyle> So a lot of these Comprehend games started out using this engine in their original releases.
[20:45] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> There seems to be some overlap of it and the Comprehend games.. so I'm wondering if they were actually the same engine, or something
[20:45] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Or an evolution of the engine perhaps
[20:45] <grogbot> <trembyle> I think Comprehend came later when Polarware re-released the games for newer platforms.
[20:46] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> There's even Trolls Tale, which we've supported since 0.11.0. I wonder if that was a re-release version as well, or was the original engine that might be extendable to other games
[20:47] <grogbot> <trembyle> I'm skeptical of that one
[20:47] <grogbot> <trembyle> Although maybe there was one port that used this engine
[20:48] <grogbot> <trembyle> Actually isn't this one of the games that Al Lowe released his source code for?
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[20:49] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Arg. It's a mess of releases and re-releases and different systems having different code. I'll stick to trying to perfect Transylvania and Crimson Crown.
[20:49] <grogbot> <trembyle> interesting. I do see The Graphics Magician mentioned in the box for apple ][ and c64. http://sierrachest.com/gfx/games/TrollsTale/box/02_back.JPG
[20:50] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Hmm.. maybe the Graphics Magician was only the graphical scene rendering part, a support library as it were, and the remainder of the games were different for each game written using it
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[20:51] <grogbot> <trembyle> The way you describe the rendering sounds a lot like ADL & AGI. I think that's possible.
[20:52] <grogbot> <trembyle> It looks like the pre-AGI engine for Troll's Tale came with the PCjr release.
[20:52] <grogbot> <trembyle> Original apple ][, C64, Atari 8-bit used a different graphics engine.
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[20:56] <grogbot> <waltervn> I always assumed the Graphics Magician was some kind of picture drawing tool and a library to use with your own game engine/code
[20:59] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> If it is, it'd be an effort to support different games using it.
[21:00] <grogbot> <trembyle> I can't find it now, but Troll's Tale is one of the games where Al Lowe retained his source code. He programmed the original version, so this could potentially shed some light on it.
[21:01] <grogbot> <trembyle> Understanding that Al did not own the rights to the software and couldn't legally release the code on his own.
[21:03] <grogbot> <waltervn> If Al remembers I'm sure he'll tell us what he knows about it. He's pretty easy to reach
[21:12] <grogbot> <waltervn> I highly suspect it's just graphics routines though
[21:13] <grogbot> <waltervn> what's interesting (only to me perhaps...) is that they remade Dark Crystal with (what I assume) is Al's engine and called it Gelfling Adventure, but since they wanted to reuse the pictures, Gelfling Adventure has the picture drawing code from ADL inside it
[21:17] <grogbot> <trembyle> That IS interesting.
[21:23] <grogbot> <Henke37> call me stupid, but there is no way to run a game with command line options when using the launcher, is there?
[21:26] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> AFAIK, you're correct - even if you specify parameters on the command line, they only get passed to the game if you specify it directly, and not go via the launcher
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[21:53] <grogbot> <ryiron> for comprehend, my understanding is that graphics magician was the scene rendering part, and comprehend is the text game engine
[21:53] <grogbot> <ryiron> graphics magician was sold a separate product for general rendering i think
[21:54] <grogbot> <ryiron> transylvania 3 is not comprehend, it appears to use agl (or some variant of) for the game logic. i don't know what the graphics part is
[21:55] <grogbot> <ryiron> @DreamMaster re-comprehend is missing a handful of things like the title screens and ending sequences. i mostly focused on getting the games playable
[21:56] <grogbot> <ryiron> one comprehend game that is still a reversing project is talisman: sands of time
[21:56] <grogbot> <ryiron> its a variant of comprehend, but i never got it fully working
[21:56] <grogbot> <ryiron> iirc i does annoying things like having a bunch of the game data embedded in the exe
[21:57] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Yes, I saw the game stub file for it. Even without the fixme, the emptyness was pretty telling.
[21:57] <grogbot> <ryiron> heh
[21:58] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> As far as the title screens go, I've already implemented the title screen display for Transylvania, including the loading and rendering of the text font for the "by" message. The title screen is actually a good test case, because it demonstrates a failure in the flood fill algorithm, so it'll be easy for me to make changes based on my disassembly and test the results
[21:58] <grogbot> <ryiron> cool
[21:58] <grogbot> <ryiron> i tried pulling your recent changes, but they don't build for me currently
[21:59] <grogbot> <ryiron> i get a bunch of ambiguous constructor errors
[21:59] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> For Talisman, I wrapped the detection entry in a #ifndef RELEASE_BUILD. So even when Glk goes supported, it won't allow detecting of the game
[21:59] <grogbot> <ryiron> i fixed a couple, but i don't really know c++
[21:59] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Really? That's weird. As far as Buildbot is concerned, it should all be hunky dory on all the various systems we supported
[21:59] <grogbot> <timofonic> What about Arctic Computing games? There's UnPlad tool. https://www.seasip.info/Unix/UnQuill/
[22:01] <grogbot> <ryiron> @DreamMaster i also think the flood fill bleeds may be due to the line algorithm rather than the fill
[22:01] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Huh, or maybe not. I thought I'd pushed a fix last night to remove the _filename field from GlkDetectionEntry.
[22:01] <grogbot> <timofonic> There's ungac tool too... In seasip site
[22:01] <grogbot> <ryiron> i remember trying to debug it at one point and noting the original game draws line slightly differently
[22:01] <grogbot> <ryiron> it could also be related to a quirk in the dos cga version dithering?
[22:02] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> @ryiron That's my thought as well. I've already identified the entry point for the screen rendering code, that loads in the renderer from pc_graph.ovl. Now I just need to figure out the main loop for processing the scene data and identify the different areas like the line drawing code.
[22:02] <grogbot> <timofonic> It seems both GAC and PLAD are common ancestors of Quill. Sorry for the offtopic, but they are IF too...
[22:04] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Yes, Unquill is one of the "in the future" ones for Glk. At the moment, I'll be working towards (after Comprehend), getting at least Frotz v6 working, and then consider Glk "version 1 complete".
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[22:04] <grogbot> <timofonic> I talked to @DreamMaster about them previously. There's also CAAD, a Spanish "fork"
[22:04] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> There are other engines for Glk that could be worked on. Like ADRIFT 5, for which source is currently only available as Visual Basic
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[22:04] <grogbot> <timofonic> I see
[22:04] <grogbot> <timofonic> Visual Braille...
[22:04] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> I reaaaaaly want to work on the Legend games 😉
[22:05] <grogbot> <timofonic> I understand you
[22:05] <grogbot> <timofonic> What about Quandaries? :P
[22:05] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- pushed 5 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfXeD
[22:05] <Scummette> scummvm/master 38a5b8e sev-: DIRECTOR: Moved all director test-related code to tests.cpp
[22:05] <Scummette> scummvm/master 787f3e4 sev-: DIRECTOR: Added test score for the test target
[22:05] <Scummette> scummvm/master fbbe8b1 sev-: DIRECTOR: LINGO: Do not freak out when requested to puppet VOID sound
[22:06] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> hides behind the nearest wall
[22:07] <grogbot> <timofonic> It was developed for the US DoJ, so it must be public domain. Right? 😅
[22:07] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> @timofonic if you have write access to the Wiki, maybe add a list of possible future engines to the Glk wiki page. Or if not, you could always add them as feature requests so I don't forget them
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[22:09] <grogbot> <timofonic> @DreamMaster It's funny you say me that, because I helped to convert some FreeSCI documentation to ScummVM wiki.
[22:11] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> Cool. Given my poor memory, I didn't want to make the assumption one way or the other.
[22:11] <grogbot> <timofonic> Some of it was in (La)TeX
[22:13] <grogbot> <DreamMaster> For that matter, it will be useful at some point for someone to look into copying documentation for Nuvie and Pentagram into the ScummVM Wiki.. most of the various settings are still present, just in the ScummVM.ini file rather than a separate one now. Ultima IV should be fine, since all such settings are configurable via the in-game Configuration menu
[22:23] <Scummette> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfXvZ
[22:23] <Scummette> scummvm/master 27496ee dreammaster: GLK: COMPREHEND: Remove unused _filename field from GlkDetectionEntry
[22:28] <Scummette> [scummvm] sev- pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfXv8
[22:28] <Scummette> scummvm/master e900e8b sev-: DIRECTOR: Split out score loading methods
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[22:43] <grogbot> <Henke37> how about a simple command line extra args option in the game config dialog?
[22:44] <grogbot> <Henke37> that'd take care of all the arguments too trivial to make into proper options
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[23:37] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with e900e8bb: Success: master-openpandora
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[23:42] <anus> Folks anyone knowlegable with running Future Wars CD Rom version?
[23:42] <anus> https://forums.scummvm.org/viewtopic.php?t=10181
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[23:45] <anus> One of the comments says to rename audio files but when you read response its kind of confusing if we are supposed to rename audio files for 2 and up or 1 and up?
[23:47] <Scummette> [scummvm] dreammaster pushed 1 new commits to master: https://git.io/JfXJ9
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[00:00] --- Thu Jun 4 2020