[00:01] Kirben (kirben@c220-239-194-17.brasd3.vic.optusnet.com.au) joined #scummvm. [00:01] #scummvm: mode change '+o Kirben' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [00:06] Action: Strangerke blames SylvainTV [00:08] heh [00:18] ugh. Trains. [00:19] wjp: wb :) [00:19] ... the train managed to be late? :/ [00:19] only 31 minutes :-) [00:20] I had brought a book, fortunately [00:20] arf :( what a shame [00:20] i should have come indeed [00:20] i didn't know ;p [00:26] SylvainTV: Still time :P [00:27] If he comes tonight, I know some other bars less crowded :P [00:47] DrMcCoy: then I'll look out for the only guy wearing an orange t-shirt :-P [00:48] or are the black too? :-P [00:48] that would be unfortunate! [00:49] they even [00:55] OH NO! Does this mean this channel is about to go quiet? ScummVM hangouts at the tavern? [00:55] Action: nutron silently sheds a tear [00:58] waltervn (~chatzilla@82-171-38-74.ip.telfort.nl) left irc: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.17/2009122203] [01:01] Nick change: Guest17168 -> notajf [01:13] heh i can't, I went back to my parent's home this weekend [01:13] nutron (~nutron@unaffiliated/nutron) left irc: Ping timeout: 252 seconds [01:24] tsoliman (~tsoliman@rrcs-98-100-164-31.central.biz.rr.com) joined #scummvm. [01:24] #scummvm: mode change '+o tsoliman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [01:25] Hi all [01:25] hey tsoliman [01:30] pok0j_ (~pok0j@abtk172.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [01:33] LordHoto: About the keymapper: I am trying to think of the best way to represent "custom" events to put into actions. Right now there is an enum which I don't think is very convenient for an engine to use to say "open inventory" or whatever custom action. So I am thinking along 1 of 2 lines, either a String (where custom actions would be unique per game/engine strings) or something like a... [01:33] ...base class similar to ActionType which an engine can inherit from and extend to add its own actions [01:34] the question is how do you plan to pump these events through the event queue? [01:35] I guess I'll have to try it to see your point. Right now keymapper adds 1 or more events to the event queue based on what is inside the action [01:36] I mean right now the engine could just create abitrary key events, right? [01:36] it can also create non-key events too [01:36] I just added the main menu event in a recent commit [01:37] meaning now keymapper action of "main menu" doesn't pump CTRL-F5 through [01:37] but only non-key events, which have an EventType, right? [01:37] right exactly [01:37] nutron (~nutron@unaffiliated/nutron) joined #scummvm. [01:37] I want to replace EventType with a class maybe [01:37] you want... what? :-P [01:38] ok let's talk about the simple idea first .. imagine if eventType was not an enum but a string [01:38] Action: LordHoto puts a mentally insane badge on tsoliman [01:38] maybe I need to try it first to understand it better.. :) [01:38] a string would be the *worst* idea [01:38] you would need to do multiple string comparisons to get an idea what event you received [01:39] right right [01:39] I am just making a point that it needs to be more generic [01:39] maybe it is as simple as adding another EventType value of custom event [01:39] we already know that ;-) [01:39] there had been *some* patch for that in fact [01:39] ? [01:39] we rejected it though [01:40] do you know the story behind the agi predictive input? [01:41] comment right above EVENT_PREDICTIVE_DIALOG in common/events.h [01:41] partly [01:41] "An associated enumerated type" means another enum? a sort of sub-enum? (I don't know the jargon) [01:42] is it at all related to what I am trying to do? [01:43] I think it wants to generalize that enum as a special sub event and add another enum to Event, which is used to distinguish on what exactly it should do [01:44] Nick change: notajf -> notajf|offline [01:45] https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/pull/8 https://github.com/scummvm/scummvm/pull/21 the custom event code was only rejected due to other code added in those requests [01:45] but still I'm not a big fan of all these hand crafted IDs all over the place [01:46] right .. because of both collisions and also strcmp vs just .. numbers [01:47] ok in #8 you say "Though I am not sure whether we really want to push all kind of events through our OSystem event queue." Which is exactly what you were asking about earlier [01:47] to that I say "I didn't realize thre are multiple queues" [01:47] Action: tsoliman goes to investigate it [01:48] we don't have any others right now, no [01:49] the problem with the global queue is, that of course the GUI might intercept those events too [01:50] which was a possible problem directly related to how Littleboy wanted to use custom events, i.e. pumpt timer trigger events through it and let his engine code do actions on those [01:50] so if you had the GUI open the timers *might* have created events, which wouldn't be received by the engine, not sure whether there's any safety measures against that [01:51] the big problem if we have one big custom event ID space, is that it gets ugly to consistently give IDs to various subsystems, but you could of course just require that only the active engine is allowed to use custom events [01:51] and move all other "custom" events for the GUI or whatever to predefined types [01:53] cyco_ (~cyco@trir-4d0d8268.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #scummvm. [01:53] cyco (~cyco@trir-4d0d8268.pool.mediaWays.net) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer [01:53] Nick change: cyco_ -> cyco [01:53] anyway if you can come up with anything good to use that would be great ;-) [01:54] thanks that really helps define the problem .. I'll share what I come up with :) [01:54] and that "class" thing earlier is a java-itis [01:54] as you may have possibly guessed :) [01:54] yes [01:55] tsoliman (~tsoliman@rrcs-98-100-164-31.central.biz.rr.com) left irc: Quit: food [01:56] but it's still nicer than strings... :-P [01:56] oh well [02:03] Vampire0_ (vampire@jEdit/Vampire) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [02:07] Nick change: Unseen2 -> unseen2 [02:08] SylvainTV (~SylvainTV@ALille-252-1-57-106.w83-198.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer [02:16] Nick change: unseen2 -> Unseen2 [02:17] Vampire0_ (vampire@jEdit/Vampire) joined #scummvm. [02:19] tsoliman (~tsoliman@rrcs-98-100-164-31.central.biz.rr.com) joined #scummvm. [02:19] #scummvm: mode change '+o tsoliman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [02:21] yep Strings are bad ... I was just trying to get a point across without thinking in JAVA [02:22] you can talk about event types ;-) [02:23] I tried and it came out "class" :P [02:23] that's generic enough and not java and not related on how you implement how to distinguish between them ;-) [02:24] you're right [02:25] Tron_ (~Tron@srbk-5d8078d7.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #scummvm. [02:27] Tron (~Tron@srbk-5d807ba6.pool.mediaWays.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 245 seconds [02:32] Javacat (~Javacat@unaffiliated/javacat) left irc: Quit: Please, try the fish [02:34] dreammaster (~paulfgilb@C-61-68-180-191.bur.connect.net.au) joined #scummvm. [02:34] #scummvm: mode change '+o dreammaster' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [02:34] LordHoto (~loom@unaffiliated/lordhoto) left irc: Quit: night [02:42] Herrman (wolter@p509115AF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #scummvm. 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[09:39] Vaikungfu (UPP@c-71-193-60-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) left irc: Disconnected by services [09:39] Nick change: Kenryu -> Vaikungfu [09:43] kettuz (~kettuz@host-94-101-5-98.igua.fi) joined #scummvm. [09:58] cyco (~cyco@trir-4d0d8268.pool.mediaWays.net) left irc: Quit: cyco [10:01] Schnaks_ (~Schnaks@p4FC4B60E.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #scummvm. [10:03] chkr (~chkr@p5DC4B654.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #scummvm. [10:03] Schnaks (~Schnaks@pD958B4DB.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Ping timeout: 260 seconds [10:03] Nick change: Schnaks_ -> Schnaks [10:10] LordHoto: Yes, the black one :P [10:10] ajax16384 (~User@ip228.net172.n37.ru) joined #scummvm. [10:10] #scummvm: mode change '+o ajax16384' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [10:18] SimSaw (~SimSaw@89.204.138.65) joined #scummvm. [10:25] James|GlideM (~James|Gli@cpc2-mapp11-2-0-cust447.12-4.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #scummvm. [10:25] #scummvm: mode change '+v James|GlideM' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. 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[12:31] One bad thing about FOSDEM: No power outlets in the rooms [12:32] My 7 year old laptop doesn't do well in the battery department [12:33] Also, the seat tables don't agree that well with my...unique physique. My belly, mainly :P [12:34] Kirben (kirben@c220-239-194-17.brasd3.vic.optusnet.com.au) left irc: [13:06] chkr (~chkr@p5DC4B654.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving [13:08] Willem Jan Palenstijn master * r6fed442 / (engines/touche/touche.cpp engines/touche/touche.h): [13:08] TOUCHE: Add charset debug channel [13:08] This is intended to help debug the missing Spanish characters reported [13:08] in #2040311 and #3483383. - http://git.io/Qho7DQ [13:09] Nick change: Unseen2 -> unseen2 [13:10] Last message repeated 1 time(s). [13:10] wjp: Meeting on Sunday 9:00 in front of the Hacker room in the H building? (room 2111) [13:11] wjp: If you see LordHoto until then, tell/ask him too [13:12] (I'll try to be on time this time. Might be a bit contrained by parking space, etc. though, so I may be a few minutes late) [13:12] I won't be there that early yet [13:17] Ah, okay [13:19] Action: eriktorbjorn scratches his head over http://www.bigbluecup.com/yabb/index.php?topic=43383.msg607959#msg607959 ... apparently we're quite unfriendly people, but I don't really remember the "much negativity" of which he speaks. [13:23] eriktorbjorn: I really don't get the AGS forum guys [13:24] A complete alien mindset [13:25] DrMcCoy: The most negative reply I heard to the idea of not offering to provide the source code yourself was your reply that it depends. Truly, you are a monster. [13:25] DrMcCoy, they're mostly game creators. not programmers who understand open source licenses [13:25] wjp: I'll try reading the channel here for your ping then :P [13:25] eriktorbjorn: Yeah, I know, I eat babies [13:25] pok0j (~pok0j@absw39.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) joined #scummvm. [13:26] DrMcCoy: Really? I thought you were a doctor, not a cannibal. [13:26] is there in fact anybody who is interested in investing the amount of effort necessary to make ags support happen, even in the absence of license issues? [13:26] eriktorbjorn: Those are not mutally exclusive :) [13:26] it does sound like there's some overlap in required skillsets :-) [13:27] wjp: I am somewhat interested; provided the 2.7 source is there. The code is really, really, /really/ awful though [13:27] DrMcCoy, I assume you know this: https://gitorious.org/ags/ags [13:28] hm, proxy error? [13:28] That was the AGS guy's repo? That one is later than 2.7 code, the 2.7 support is not in there anymore [13:28] ah, works after a few retries [13:29] DrMcCoy, that's ags 3, yes. worked on by grundislav and a few others [13:29] Yeah, not really that interested in that [13:30] salty-horse (~ori@bzq-79-179-16-179.red.bezeqint.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving [13:30] I'm more interested in getting Yahtzee's games in ScummVM [13:33] What I don't get is the fear that ScummVM's license would in any way affect the license of the games it runs. [13:33] Yeah, I dunno [13:33] I mean, why would anyone think that? It would go against anything I've seen so far. [13:34] Probably because of the game data and executable bundling? [13:35] well, it's not completely unthinkable [13:36] I mean, the difference between scripts and logic in C is subtle [13:36] IANAL, so I don't know [13:36] same here... [13:38] The talk about "sustainable mentorship" here is interesting, in light of GSoC [13:40] Basically, we should not look at it like it's a student doing a job, but the focus should be more on growing a relationship between the community and the student [13:41] sounds sensible [13:41] In that sense, we did really abysmal in the GSoC so far [13:41] None of our students stayed [13:43] eriktorbjorn: the GPL uses a term like 'mere aggregation' to describe things which are not covered when bundling, which is very legally ambigious in such circumstances [13:44] The GIMP guys had something similar with their plugins; whether they're covered under the GIMP's GPL [13:44] A lawyer's answer was "maybe" [13:45] pretty difficult to develop a GIMP plugin without making it directly a derivative work, you'd think [13:45] I'd have serious trouble to explain any fundamental (non-technical) difference between linking against a C interface and having a script with an interpreter that does so [13:45] The GIMP people added an extension to their license to explicetely state that the plugins can be proprietary [13:45] the nice solution is just to provide a note stating that bundled games/scripts aren't covered.. [13:45] ah, well, yes, like that :) [13:46] need everyone on board with exceptions like that though [13:46] hm, do we have any external GPLed dependencies? [13:46] There's a difference between modifying and adding something that widens the license, I heard [13:46] You don't need to contact all contributors for the latter guys [13:46] s/guys/case/ [13:47] yes, but this would be narrowing [13:47] The GIMP people didn't, they just changed their license [13:47] i.e. taking people's contributions and allowing them to be used without permission in circumstances they wouldn't originally have been allowed [13:48] but I can't imagine a "clarification" would be an issue [13:48] I think in our case it's pretty clear that we never intended to force open-source requirements on game scripts [13:48] I honestly don't know :P [13:48] i.e. "to the best of our knowledge, this is the interpretation intended by all contributors" [13:48] (for any contributors to scummvm itself) [13:48] right [13:48] I'd be more worried about any external GPL code [13:48] right, people would have to compile that out, if any [13:49] Bleh [13:49] well said :-) [13:49] Stupid laws and licenses and stuff :P [13:49] I assume FAAD is GPL [13:50] that seems GPL2, yes [13:50] but unless a game is using AAC, irrelevant, and if they are using AAC, then they have their own licensing problems anyway [13:50] Anyway, I'll be afk for another while, no power outlets in the talk rooms make my laptop's battery cry :P [13:50] hf [13:52] Well, none of the other games we support has had to change its license. [13:52] I think that sets a pretty strong precedent. [13:54] not sure it does [13:54] Anyway, after this one I'm done writing posts in that AGS forum thread. If he still feels he's been badly treated, he's either paranoid or incredibly thin-skinned. In which case, what on earth is he doing on the Internet? [13:54] the issue would be "what if a developer suddenly becomes hostile to the devs?" [13:54] so a clarification clause somewhere might be a really nice idea anyway.. [13:55] it makes sense [13:55] but, yes, the AGS people are weirdly crazy/hostile [13:59] "This suggestion was also rejected by the folks on the ScummVM forum." --> the only suggestion was to exempt the bundling of game data *in the executable file* and *without scummvm source*, the latter being the most objected to? [14:00] and LordHoto already suggested adding an explanation of the view that games aren't required to be GPL [14:01] so yes, RickJ is just being argumentatively hostile, surely [14:06] sirlemonhead (~bduncan22@86-45-5-182-dynamic.b-ras2.prp.dublin.eircom.net) joined #scummvm. [14:07] Anyway, my interpretation of http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#IfInterpreterIsGPL is that games that run on ScummVM would fall under the "just data" case. Not that I'd personally would care as long as the licence on ScummVM itself is upheld. [14:09] ah, didn't remember that FAQ entry [14:09] it carefully avoids mentioning the 'distributing the interpreter with the programs' case though? [14:11] kind of a weird omission [14:13] but I mean it's clearly an obscure corner-case of an argument anyway, it is just one that can easily be covered by a clarification clause to end any worrying about it [14:15] I'm asking sev, Strangerke and LordHoto if they think it would be a good idea, and if so I'll bring it up on the ML [14:18] well, as I said, LordHoto already suggested it previously [14:18] for FAQ or similar [14:18] but, thanks, good idea [14:24] giucam (~giulio@adsl-ull-165-205.49-151.net24.it) joined #scummvm. [14:37] Nebrac (~Nebrac@5350EF2B.cm-6-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) joined #scummvm. [14:40] SylvainTV (~SylvainTV@ALille-252-1-57-106.w83-198.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #scummvm. [14:40] #scummvm: mode change '+o SylvainTV' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. 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[16:32] Nick change: NotJavacat -> Javacat [16:46] TAS_2012v (~TAS_2012x@c-50cde253.1710-7-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) left irc: Ping timeout: 248 seconds [16:48] TAS_2012v (~TAS_2012x@c-50cde253.1710-7-64736c12.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #scummvm. [16:59] Nick change: notajf|offline -> notajf [17:16] Hkz (~Hkz@2001:470:c89a:2:21c:c0ff:fedc:e508) joined #scummvm. [17:16] #scummvm: mode change '+o Hkz' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [17:50] droid2727 (~AndChat@96.sub-75-250-126.myvzw.com) joined #scummvm. [17:50] #scummvm: mode change '+o droid2727' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [18:02] chkr (~chkr@p5DC4B654.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Quit: Leaving [18:04] Smartnow (~Smartnow@unaffiliated/smartnow) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [18:06] Tarek Soliman master * r38b8e09 / backends/platform/maemo/maemo-common.h : [18:06] MAEMO: Add detection entry for the Nokia 700 running OS2008HE [18:06] This allows the Nokia 770 running OS2008HE to be used. [18:06] Fixes bug#3483921 "Volume rocker do no emulate keypress as it used" - http://git.io/osgf1A [18:06] tsoliman (~tsoliman@rrcs-98-100-164-31.central.biz.rr.com) joined #scummvm. [18:06] #scummvm: mode change '+o tsoliman' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [18:08] that AGS guy is really going on my nerves [18:09] LordHoto: just say "we welcome your patches that conform with our license" :P [18:12] Tomaz^ (tompsson@h-240-127.a199.priv.bahnhof.se) left irc: Ping timeout: 248 seconds [18:12] Tomaz^ (tompsson@h-240-127.a199.priv.bahnhof.se) joined #scummvm. [18:18] Action: tsoliman is reading the logs [18:18] I thought you were talking about guys on the scummvm forum [18:19] no I'm talking about his post in their forums [18:20] I think the simple solution is to not read their forums. [18:26] probably, but when looking into these license clarifications and trying to see what exactly he wants to have, it's hard to get some overview on that without doing so [18:27] I think the hostility towards scummvm team in general is coming from the team worrying about maintainability and clean code and license issues and other "silly" things rather than "allowing people to play the game" .. this is a very easy position to take if you are not a dev .. sometimes even when you are a dev (the dreamweb drama) [18:27] well, I think paying attention to RickJ's requests is a really bad idea [18:28] but independently of that, some clarification about us not claiming GPL coverage of game data might be a good idea to cover other people's worries. [18:29] we can just link to the GPL page eriktorbjorn linked [18:29] it pretty sums it up, that the interpreted stuff doesn't need to be under GPL [18:29] well, that GPL FAQ question is very careful not to mention distribution at all [18:29] so frankly I would not personally be reassured at all by it :) [18:29] but the GPL is a distribution license [18:29] but then my personal answer here would be "oh dear me, are you crazy?" [18:30] tsoliman: yes, but the question is answering "is this going to make my scripts a derivative work and thus covered by the GPL when distributing?" [18:30] we can after all just ask the GPL people about it [18:30] and what we want to know is "if I bundle scripts and a GPLed interpreter, will fire fall from the sky and doom us all?" [18:31] FSF has been very clear about this in the past .. cut up your game into assets and code .. GPL the code and not the assets and you're ok [18:31] I thought I read about that once too [18:31] but I can't find it anymore [18:31] tsoliman: well, if you can find some clarification where the asset owner isn't the code owner, that would be ideal [18:32] yes, but here group X does the code, and group Y the data [18:32] fuzzie: right :-) [18:32] RMS won't shut up about it .. I will try to find a link [18:32] obviously it's useless if both are from the same copyright owner though [18:32] since you may do whatever you please in such a circumstance.. [18:32] no the idea that RMS was making was that people wanna modify the code [18:32] otherwise why bother GPLing :P [18:32] yeah, but they want to modify the scripts too, which are code [18:33] fuzzie: and no you may not do whatever you want in such circumstances as that would violate the GPL (stupidly enough) [18:33] also they would like a pony [18:33] tsoliman: you can't violate the GPL as the copyright owner, surely [18:33] you can but you cannot be prosecuted :( [18:33] fuzzie: at any rate compiling stuff through a GPL compiler doesn't make it GPL either [18:33] (because it would be Tarek vs Tarek :P) [18:33] well, sort of [18:34] giucam (~giulio@adsl-ull-165-205.49-151.net24.it) left irc: Ping timeout: 240 seconds [18:34] Smartnow (~Smartnow@unaffiliated/smartnow) joined #scummvm. [18:34] I mean, the runtime libraries of gcc come with specific no-GPL exceptions here. [18:34] only if you add GPLed runtime with it yes [18:34] But, I mean, Linux comes with a "this does not apply to userspace apps" exemption. [18:34] but I don't think the AGS compiler wouldn't have such exceptions [18:34] And claiming GPL coverage *there* would be even more insane than claiming it for ScummVM. [18:34] but the distribution is really the only thing we need to think about [18:34] I'd really just add a clarification and stop worrying :-) [18:35] So obviously people are crazy and need clarifications for their mental health. [18:35] yeah, but it won't help AGS [18:35] since that guy wants us to modify our license [18:35] fuzzie: wasn't there a clause to the effect of "you cannot add extra restrictions" or something? [18:35] we're not adding restrictions, we're just clarifying, similar to what the GPL FAQ is doing [18:35] yes [18:35] this isn't an extra restriction anyway? [18:35] I'm all for that [18:36] no I was talking about the Linux comment [18:36] tsoliman: that also isn't a restriction? [18:36] the Linux licensing says that userspace apps *aren't* magically GPLed by their Linux presence [18:36] fuzzie: no .. like wjp said, it is just a clarification in the faq .. with or without it, it is true [18:36] yes..? [18:37] so we are all agreed? :-) [18:37] i don't understand why you're mentioning restrictions :P [18:37] wjp: yes [18:37] yes, but while I generally agree that this is in fact just a clarification in our point of view, I wouldn't trust it to make it an official part of the license [18:37] fuzzie: you're right .. I was confused [18:37] LordHoto: well, that would be legally dubious anyway, since we don't have any agreement to *change* the license [18:37] anyway the AGS guy wants this: "Adding a clause to the license that explicitly re-states what it already says wouldn't be a problem unless one or more of the copyright holders has a different interpretation than you and I do." [18:38] fuzzie: yes that's why I'm against it [18:38] my proposal above was "to the best of our knowledge, this is the interpretation intended by all contributors" [18:38] fuzzie: I initially thought the linux bit was a restriction [18:38] are you against something like that? [18:38] (against adding it as part of the license) [18:38] but yes, obviously adding a clause to the license is impossible and anyone suggesting it is mad [18:38] 1. I'm for adding a clarifcation, which clearly states it's our view of the license [18:38] yes you cannot modify the license (which is what I thought you were saying linux was doing .. hence the whole restrictions thing) [18:38] 2. I'm against adding it as part of the license text [18:39] LunaVorax (~LunaVorax@ABordeaux-552-1-66-38.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #scummvm. [18:39] LunaVorax (~LunaVorax@ABordeaux-552-1-66-38.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: Client Quit [18:39] LordHoto: we cannot alter the license because we are not the copyright holders it is that simple [18:39] where adding it as part of the license text means, adding it in a way which makes it a legally binding addition on the license text [18:39] yes that's why I am against it [18:39] so we are all in agrement [18:39] yes [18:39] that is unfortunate [18:39] yes [18:39] I'm just trying to say: I'm all for the clarification [18:39] fuzzie: what is? [18:39] I said that already in the thread last year or so [18:40] yes, I mentioned this earlier too [18:40] and I additionally wanted to state that for the AGS guy this doesn't seem to be enough [18:40] but frankly, if he doesn't want to make any step into our direction at all, I don't think I care about it any longer [18:40] well, bad luck for him [18:40] I want AGS games in scummvm :( but yeah if he's going be that way .. :( [18:40] I'm offering to add clarifications to show good will and to make the whole situation more clear [18:41] tsoliman: I think it has already been more hassle than it's worth. [18:41] but frankly the distribution case is really a bit odd in the GPL... [18:41] thus I am totally against his third "clause" he wanted us to add [18:42] what license is AGS under right now? [18:42] http://www.bigbluecup.com/yabb/index.php?topic=43383.msg608126#msg608126 and that post makes me annoyed at the guy btw. [18:42] cyco (~cyco@2002:5b0c:7b68:0:b539:2966:d84:bf62) joined #scummvm. [18:43] he doesn't know how big scummvm is or that there are contributors that aren't reachable anymore [18:43] I think that's completely besides the point [18:43] he thinks "it is really simple" and I see his POV as one of ignorance [18:43] tsoliman: or whose copyright had passed to their relatives after their death [18:44] tsoliman: yeah [18:44] Alyssa Milburn master * r9f8520f / engines/queen/logic.cpp : [18:44] QUEEN: Fix clicking at the pinnacle. [18:44] Check where the click was *before* scrolling the view, so that [18:44] it works with a touchscreen. Also, check shouldQuit() here. - http://git.io/yZPQQQ [18:44] Am beginning to hate all ScummVM input code. :P [18:45] You people and your 'mice' and 'keyboards'. [18:45] it's just because touchscreens behave in a way which good old mouse input didn't [18:45] teleportation? [18:45] Well, it would work terribly if you had superhuman reactions also. [18:46] at any rate I'm all for trying to employ click events etc. instead of the more hardware specific button down/button up [18:46] click events + duration [18:47] yes, but what is duration? [18:47] between down and up [18:47] we now have iOS/Android just hacked to fake 50ms [18:47] and why do we need that? [18:47] LordHoto: good point [18:47] if the engine could was adapted to handle click events, if that is possible [18:47] where the last if is a pretty big if [18:47] well, in the situations where the game scripts depend on it, obviously it is a nightmare [18:47] yup [18:48] and it is possible to simply fake in the backend.. [18:48] and then you would need a drag event too [18:48] drag event for what? [18:48] tsoliman: well, that is usually handled by some gesture [18:48] or an alternative input mode [18:48] for the games that have dragging .. otherwise a drag would senda click event to the engine [18:48] so it seems a lot easier to just hack around this in the backend [18:49] but engines expecting mouse *movement* just have to be fixed I think [18:49] yeah which ports are already doing it seems .. it is just that each port is doing its own thing [18:49] tsoliman: which games have that? [18:49] well the iOS and Android backends are now doing the same thing :) [18:50] LordHoto: no idea .. just speculating .. [18:50] more common is a 'held down' event, e.g. comi [18:50] or the crystal bridges in dig [18:50] yeah, a held down event might be basically a better way for "dragging" implementation in the frontends [18:51] at any rate, instead of speculating all the time, it would be better if the all-so-famous someone steps up and asks engine authors in what they need/dig around in the source [18:52] or they could just go and patch engines! [18:52] victory against the dreaded pinnacle! [18:52] well if we want to change our engine visible events, when it would make more sense to get an overview on what is needed [18:53] afterwards one could come up with a first proof-of-concept and check how that works out and if it doesn't throw it away and do a different approach [18:53] well, I asked a few people and came to the conclusion that it's hopeless because there are engines with scripts that expect mouse up/down/pos state [18:54] and faking that in various engines seems like far more work than faking a mouse in the backend, and patching up the simpler cases where needed [18:54] but if anyone has an actual proposal for something less insane then I would be delighted to hear. [18:54] in fact we could still employ a somewhat nicer scheme and have some generic patcher, for the engines which need different behavior [18:55] but unless someone really is interested in doing some work for that, I don't think there's any need in talking about it any more [18:55] well, it would be very useful to patch various engines to make them more touch-friendly [18:56] risca (~risca@wnpgmb0903w-ds01-177-34.dynamic.mtsallstream.net) joined #scummvm. [18:56] well doing that can be done without changing the event types the engines will get though :-) [18:56] but it would probably require some invasive work and everyone gets all shouty at the mention of enhancements [18:56] but I am not convinced about event types [18:56] if tsoliman thinks some uninformness on the backend side would be good, that might be nice to hear [18:57] well I'm talking about engine visible events [18:57] the idea of the keymapper is after all to finally get some separation in there [18:57] yes, I mean, uniformness about which events backend produce [18:57] i.e. have hardware events and have frontend events and let the keymapper relate those [18:58] and then just name the thing eventmapper [18:58] yes, well, that would be a nice dream [18:58] That's the plan, I just need some solid proof of concept first, which I am working on [18:58] see, I'm currently trying to get my hands on an old iPhone from a friend [18:58] so if I can finally manage to get that, I might look a bit into what exactly touch screen backends require [18:59] right now it's pretty hard to imagine that without ever having used one ;-) [19:00] LordHoto: can one develop for iOS without a mac [19:00] ? [19:00] I thought if you jailbreak it you can? [19:00] That would be cool [19:01] after all we have some iphone toolchain on our buildbot, don't we? [19:01] tsoliman: note our buildbot iPhone builds :p [19:01] I didn't think so, my understanding is that the jailbreak removes the need for signing (the$$$ license) [19:01] right on. I will soon get the opportunity (hopefully) to jailbreak my kid's iPhone 1 [19:01] at some point you could also happily do the signing also [19:04] But yes the vision is to make the keymapper into an event mapper. I am currently exploring the engine-specific-events at the moment and trying to get GUI to not pop them off the event queue [19:05] do they need to get all the way to the GUI? [19:05] well what I am trying to do is make sure no one grabs them off of the event queue before the engine gets them [19:05] fuzzie: they get to the GUI just because the GUI is just an event loop on top of your engine, if a GUI dialog is opened [19:06] yes, but the EventManager gets the pollEvent request, and the EventManager has the keymapper [19:06] so? [19:06] this may end up being an invalid concern regarding the current keymapper implementation since the gui keymap is opaque [19:06] well clearly I am missing the point here somehow :-p [19:07] tsoliman: don't worry about that for now [19:07] tsoliman: that's a fundamentally different problem in how the event queue is used [19:07] kettuz (~kettuz@host-94-101-5-98.igua.fi) left irc: Quit: Leaving [19:08] just suppose the good old ring case, which tried to pump events from timer callbacks, the only way you can prevent those events from reaching the GUI ever would be to not let the GUI poll them by adding logic in the event manager, which only polls events for the active frontend [19:09] (apart that adding events from a timer callback is the most dangerous thing to do ever, since the event queue code isn't thread safe) [19:10] LordHoto: Ok, *now* I'm done responding to that guy. I hope. :-) [19:10] yes that's what I concluded yesterday .. that I have to modify the default event manager implementation (since it is a queue and you cannot "put it back where you found it") from the GUI manager code [19:11] the keymapper doesn't have enough knowledge [19:11] ? [19:11] because the default event manager has a _keymapper field right there, I thought you could just do _keymapper->pleaseDoTheRightThing(); [19:11] the keymapper has nearly zero knowledge about where the events come from [19:12] also the keymapper is not about filtering events [19:12] the events coming out of the keymapper will still hit the GUI and get popped out of the queue (currently) [19:12] tsoliman: please, don't worry about that for now [19:12] Smartnow (~Smartnow@unaffiliated/smartnow) left irc: Remote host closed the connection [19:12] ok [19:12] that's not a problem related to keymapping in fact ;-) [19:13] I am looking at the pull request #8 and your comments on what is good/bad and why and will totally disregard the part about the listeners [19:13] we have the a event might hit the GUI event loop instead of the engine event loop, even without any keymapping [19:13] see I'm feeling bad about ever having introduced that listener stuff [19:13] because it seems people tried to abuse it in all ways possible [19:13] Action: LordHoto shudders thinking about mouse coordinate translation in the OpenGL backend formerly [19:13] no I worried about it for 10 mins yesterday and then mentally dropped it because it was so intrusive [19:14] [WOODY]_ (woodygfx@188.25.219.144) joined #scummvm. 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[19:14] my initial goal was to have the GUI running concurrent with our engine [19:14] intrusive meaning "I am not competent enough to implement this" [19:14] but that said of course all GUI isn't ready for that [19:15] so there's 2 approaches .. multiple queues (I don't like that one) or adding extra attributes to the Event that make it clear who is/isn't allowed to poll for it [19:15] oh please, just forget about that for a second ;-) [19:15] oh ok [19:15] focus on the bigger problems at hand, i.e. implementing a good event mapper [19:17] a pretty good assumption is that the GUI only polls for events after its keymap has been set up, thus you should only get GUI events generated [19:18] right .. because the gui keymap is opaque [19:18] and if the client code really opens up the GUI with other events still in the queue, there's naive reasoning which says the code doesn't care about it anymore anyway [19:19] ok that is a good naive assumption [19:19] thanks LordHoto [19:19] the GUI might intercept custom events, is only really a problem if you go with one big ID space for custom events and then have the GUI and the engine assign the same ID to different events [19:20] yes and that's what LittleBoy actually did (one big ID space with his uints/ints) [19:20] of course you might lose events to the GUI [19:21] but frankly, our event queue isn't a generic event queue, it's about user input/actions [19:21] the solution to that is simple (but I won't worry about it now) is to make an extra field be an ID space identifier [19:21] so pumping critical non-user input/action events through it isn't a safe idea anyway [19:22] in case an engine wants "global" (i.e. global to the engine) event queue, it could just implement it on its own [19:22] what would be an example of a critical event? [19:22] well I don't know [19:22] the ring engine seemed to create events every time a timer triggered [19:22] and pumped them through the event queue [19:22] I can only think of "quit" and "pause" and those are both user input/action [19:23] but "quit" is handled by the event manager anyway (i.e. it sets "shouldQuit()") [19:23] so if you lose your quit event to the GUI it shouldn't be any problem [19:23] right I am saying as an output of the Key/EventMapper [19:24] basically anything out of the KeyMapper is user input anyway [19:24] the event manager still gets the quit event, all the outcoming events are going through the event manager [19:24] and the idea is to have the input to the event mapper not being from the same queue anyway [19:24] but from the backend directly [19:25] hmmm .. I never considered that [19:25] (all comes down into separating hardware events from user actions) [19:25] to* [19:25] what is an example of a user action that isn't really a hardware event? [19:26] attack in lol for example [19:26] that's an user action [19:26] the hardware event is what you mapped to trigger that user action [19:26] so the event mapper eats the hardware events and pumps out user actions [19:26] another example is right click on touchscreen ports [19:26] "right click" is the user action [19:26] while a two finger tap might be the hardware event, which is mapped to that [19:27] but right-click is also a hardware event in the desktop [19:27] sure [19:27] but you still have two different views on it [19:27] one which is the hardware specific event [19:28] and one which is the user action, which the frontend processes [19:28] the idea is still to have the two only connected via the keymapper [19:28] at least that's how I understood the idea behind the event mapper ;-) [19:29] so the "default" keymap would make hardware(right-click) map to action(right-click) [19:29] but you can change either side of that mapping [19:29] yes [19:29] I understand now [19:29] well it's in reality just a one way mapping [19:29] from hardware to action [19:29] right but you know what I meant [19:30] i.e. you don't want to create hardware events from user actions ;-) [19:30] :) right [19:30] it is always hardware(x) ->action(y) for a given X,Y [19:30] in the implementation you might need a sort of two-way mapping to keep track of assigned events though [19:30] we have that now already via iteration [19:31] i.e. have a strong hardware(x)<->action(y) mapping, so that you can map one X to exactly one Y (minus maybe allowing some not-so-important events to be unmapped) [19:31] but the idea behind the event mapper is that it maps hardware specific events to user actions [19:32] so a hardware to action mapping [19:32] as you already said there's of course events which might be shared [19:32] just think of keyboard events [19:32] and now I understand why you were puzzled at why the output of keymapper is keystates [19:33] those could be generated directly and passed through unmapped [19:33] well the keymapper in reality really seems to be aimed at mapping key events to keys or something like that [19:34] I don't really know, I never understood the reason behind that and what the actualy idea behind it was [19:34] but to me it always made sense to have some hardware -> user action mapping [19:34] we're not that far off in the code actually [19:35] at least in the user-event side of the mapping [19:35] maybe ;-) if you say so, that code always looked confusing to me ;-) [19:35] it is .. because it is simply bad code [19:36] I will slowly clean it up as I go along [19:36] yeah the hardware event side isn't really done at all [19:36] it is very tough to clean up stuff without grokking the big picture [19:36] I mean we don't have any abstraction for that at all yet :-) [19:36] right we only have HardwareKey [19:36] uhm yes [19:36] and some vague attempt at saying "the backend must define its keys" and they all just use the default [19:37] but frankly that always looked to me like it's really about keyboard keys [19:37] I think I could start by wrapping keymapper's view of the list of hardware keys to be a list of hardware events [19:38] a simple hardware event is just one of those keys [19:38] i.e. right now the HardwareKey seems to be bound to having keyboard events [19:38] and I don't know how exactly it works, it seemed to me like it would intercept some fake key events map them to hardware key events and map them to what they are mapped to [19:38] i.e. really confusing [19:39] let me dig into that [19:39] while my idea is to have the backend generated hardware events instead of "Event" events [19:40] and use those events to map them into the "Event" (i.e. user action) events [19:40] of course in the case of keyboard events, the hardware events might map 1:1 to the corresponding key event [19:40] I will use maemo as a test case because enough people have complained about the hardcoded hardware-key->maemo-specific-action mapping [19:41] right I was going to say the class heirarchy is going to be weird because HardwareEvent isn't going to be a type of Event [19:41] they should be separated anyway [19:41] :-) [19:41] there might be some overlap for events which might be just routed through, like keyboard events [19:42] but in theory they should be two different types of events [19:42] right [19:42] Action: tsoliman closes that stupid AGS thread [19:43] I meant .. closes the browser window [19:43] not lock the threa [19:43] d [19:45] frankly coming up with a good definition of hardware events isn't that trivial I think [19:46] but I would personally want to see hardware events and actions to be separated as much as possible, i.e. have no way that they could be in the same queue and thus prevent abuse of either of them [19:48] I also strongly believe that the current keymapper code is hard to understand, because when it was written the whole hardware and action events were not viewed as different things and/or someone thought it might be fine to keep them as one representation :-) [19:49] I think it may have been a response to SdlEventSource::remapKey [19:50] not sure [19:50] the backends really need some custom events too, but that's all part of the user action stuff [19:50] the usage case is the scaler hotkeys for example [19:51] I mean SDL_Event is sort of like a HardwareEvent .. yes it is coming from SDL but it is the same thing for SDL backends [19:51] instead of hardcoding the mappings, they backend should be able to define an action which is say "increase scale factor" and then let the event mapper worry about how it's created [19:51] the* [19:52] (that is something you need to think of, when you work on custom user events :-) [19:54] and now I'll give you some time to make any sense of random flow of thoughts, I just wrote down here ;-) [19:55] I am so thankful for logs.scummvm.org :) [19:57] and thanks for all the ideas :) [19:57] cyco (~cyco@2002:5b0c:7b68:0:b539:2966:d84:bf62) 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[20:43] ezekiel_ (~ezekiel@cpc2-glfd5-2-0-cust495.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #scummvm. [20:48] ezekiel_ (~ezekiel@cpc2-glfd5-2-0-cust495.6-2.cable.virginmedia.com) left irc: Quit: Ex-Chat [20:51] Hmm... The "Elk Moon Murder" credits mentions "MADE", and it was made by Activision. I wonder if it's related to the Return to Zork engine. Though the EXE file is almost a megabyte, so I guess there's a good chance it's hard-coded. [21:14] Willem Jan Palenstijn master * re8ef680 / engines/touche/staticres.cpp : [21:14] TOUCHE: Add two missing accented letters to Spanish charset. [21:14] The A-acute, I-acute, O-acute and U-acute seem to be missing from the font, [21:14] and are now all remapped to their unaccented ASCII variants. I and A [21:14] were added by 303333352a3, and this patch adds O and U. [21:14] This is assuming the CP850 encoding, which is not entirely verified. [21:14] See bugs #2040311 and #3483383. - http://git.io/8JLY3A [21:17] of course we could also just add them since the entire font is in a static array in our sources... [21:18] Action: wjp tsks at people from 2008 for not following through with the clearly missing characters already mentioned in the bug report from back then [21:29] hardwarekey.cpp has 2 struct definitions that I want to pull out into a .h file: Key and Mod ... is that a bad idea? It seems better than copy/pasting the same structs every time you want to define those static tables (see linuxmoto's hardwarekey.cpp) [21:36] droid2727 (~AndChat@96.sub-75-250-126.myvzw.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 248 seconds [21:36] droid2727 (~AndChat@96.sub-75-250-126.myvzw.com) joined #scummvm. [21:38] #scummvm: mode change '+o droid2727' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [21:39] Kenryu (UPP@c-71-193-60-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #scummvm. [21:39] Vaikungfu (UPP@c-71-193-60-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) left irc: Disconnected by services [21:39] Nick change: Kenryu -> Vaikungfu [21:47] ny00123 (~ny00123@109.64.197.3) left irc: Quit: Leaving [22:00] apparently posting a comment to a closed + fixed bug reopens it even though I enabled "close comment posting" [22:00] closed bug 3483921 again .. hopefully forever this time :) [22:01] I thought close comment posting, just means nobody is allowed to comment on it anymore [22:01] I thought so too .. it must have broke recently? [22:01] either that or "masta" has admin rights on scummvm [22:02] well I mean maybe sf.net thinks it makes sense if you comment on a closed bug, which disallows comment posts on it, that it opens the bug again so you don't violate the restriction ;-) [22:02] well masta666 opened the bug [22:03] maybe he is allowed to unclose etc. it [22:03] that would make sense [22:03] he opened the bug to say thanks? [22:03] but unlikely given that people have to ask bugs to be reopened [22:04] the log on that ticket does show he changed allow_comments from 0 to 1 [22:04] but also everything else [22:04] yes [22:04] lol [22:04] in general I always uncheck that box, so that people can still comment on it [22:04] looking at the timestamps I wonder if he(?) had the bug page open [22:04] yeah, I always uncheck it too [22:04] I am not sure why we shouldn't allow further comments anyway [22:04] and thus reset everything due to those being the form options present on the page [22:05] yeah it is the default so I left it alone [22:05] and, yes, disabling comments always seems a bad idea to me [22:06] ok I will uncheck it from now on [22:06] it makes sense .. how else would you ask for a bug to be reopened? [22:06] by opening another bug or asking on forum or IRC or in email :p [22:06] also, if anyone can "unclose comment posting" then it is very pointless [22:07] i really doubt anyone can do it without permissions to change the bug [22:07] i.e. only reporter and devs [22:08] tsoliman: I suspect the creator of an item has all the rights to changing the status etc. too [22:09] is it living up to its name .. it thinks any small .h file is a copy of codec.h (another small .h file) because of the boilerplate copyright notice at the top (70% the same) [22:09] s/is it/git is/ [22:11] do you really care what the stat says though? [22:11] it is also the diff [22:11] it is diffing it with codec.h on adding a new .h file [22:12] the worst part is that (I really think but I am not 100% sure) if someone changes codec.h .. the next merge will magically change your file in the same way [22:13] well in the common bits anyway .. so maybe that's ok [22:13] well, 'git blame' will tell you the line-by-line tracking [22:13] it's never going to start fiddling with things it can't track uniquely though? [22:14] yep .. confirmed [22:14] changing the copyright notice of codec.h changes the copyright notice of my .h file [22:15] it doesn't do so siltently though .. it does tell you it is merging [22:16] actually nevermind [22:25] James|GlideM (~James|Gli@cpc2-mapp11-2-0-cust447.12-4.cable.virginmedia.com) joined #scummvm. [22:25] #scummvm: mode change '+v James|GlideM' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [22:33] Nebrac (~Nebrac@5350EF2B.cm-6-1d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) left irc: Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- [23:02] ajax16384 (~User@ip228.net172.n37.ru) left irc: Quit: KVIrc 4.1.3 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/ [23:11] James|GlideM (~James|Gli@cpc2-mapp11-2-0-cust447.12-4.cable.virginmedia.com) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer [23:21] Kirben (kirben@c220-239-194-17.brasd3.vic.optusnet.com.au) joined #scummvm. [23:21] #scummvm: mode change '+o Kirben' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. [23:32] LordHoto or wjp: when you have time can you review this: https://github.com/tsoliman/scummvm/commit/28cb50e7d038aa7dfb3ffa1ad65bcdee0bb397fb ... I am messing with SDL code to eliminate copy/pasta in MAEMO and LINUXMOTO .. [23:34] These were initially all cpp-file-only structs but now they are basically visible from sdl.h and the creation code of the hardwarekeyset from static tables is available for reuse [23:37] pok0j_ (~pok0j@absw39.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) joined #scummvm. [23:37] friggle_ (~friggle@li60-24.members.linode.com) joined #scummvm. [23:37] pok0j (~pok0j@absw39.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) left irc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds [23:38] friggle (~friggle@li60-24.members.linode.com) left irc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds [23:38] pranq (pranq@unaffiliated/contempt) left irc: Ping timeout: 255 seconds [23:38] pranq (pranq@unaffiliated/contempt) joined #scummvm. [23:42] D0SFreak (~D0SFreak@71-23-3-153.gar.clearwire-wmx.net) joined #scummvm. [00:00] --- Sun Feb 5 2012