ScummVM IRC Log - 23 Jan 2012

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[03:44] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with e4d6d478: Failure: master-gp2x
[03:49] <buttercup> does anyone else who has a gp2x still use theirs at all?
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[08:44] <CIA-26> Strangerke master * r2820573 / (2 files): TSAGE: R2R - Fix a couple of bugs in scenes 1925 and 1945, some renaming - http://git.io/2zocAw
[08:46] <Strangerke> And hi guys
[08:46] <fuzzie> morning
[08:52] <madmoose> cheerio
[08:52] <Strangerke> madmoose: Hum, I prefer coffee
[09:06] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 2820573b: Success: master-gp2x. Nice work, all ports built fine now
[09:08] <CIA-26> dhewg * r56235 /buildbot/public_html/ (builds.html update_builds_html.pl): BUILDBOT: Link OpenPandora nightly builds
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[10:12] <wjp> so does it look like lsl3/5 just don't work in windows at the moment with the default configuration?
[10:12] <wjp> due to a drv/virtual store problem?
[10:13] <fuzzie> well, that would be my suspicion
[10:20] <wjp> argh
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[10:51] <DJWillis> <buttercup> does anyone else who has a gp2x still use theirs at all? << I still get user feedback for the GP2X, in fact, more than I get for the Caanoo, Wiz or OpenPandora.
[10:58] <DJWillis> wjp: fuzzie: Something tells me we are going to have to settle on ScummVM setup being per-profile and stuff the saves in "CSIDL_DEFAULT_MYDOCUMENTS\My Games" or we are just going to spend another 6 months painting this bikeshed ;). At least that seems the most 'de-facto' default in lew of anything like CSIDL_DEFAULT_MYGAMES. Should remove needs on the virtual store crap at least.
[10:58] <fuzzie> sure
[10:58] <fuzzie> i just can't believe we're depending on the virtual store stuff
[10:58] <wjp> it's completely stupid
[10:58] <fuzzie> (the windows filter driver does indeed block attempts to write .drv files and thus is the cause of the SCI bugs)
[10:59] <DJWillis> fuzzie: well it seems mental that we ever shove stuff in Program Files that is user writable as MS do make a very big deal about it being insane (even in the XP days they bitched about it, in Vista they went out of there way to make a point ;-))
[11:00] <wjp> I just don't understand why we didn't change this ages ago
[11:00] <DJWillis> fuzzie: yep, lets see, a non-elevated user dumping possable .drv,.sys,.exe etc. files into a program files dir at runtime, I have to side with MS on this one ;-)
[11:01] <wjp> DJWillis: care to submit a patch?
[11:01] <fuzzie> DJWillis: well, it's virtualized, so it's not as if they can affect any other user
[11:01] <DJWillis> wjp: well I think we have been (to quote Max) painting the bike shed for the last few years, to also quote Max, it's Blue.
[11:01] <wjp> I know, but you're just continuing at this point :-)
[11:01] <wjp> so, care to submit a patch?
[11:02] <wjp> if this keeps up I'll just do it myself and leave the mess that will result in for people who actual develop on windows to clean up
[11:02] <DJWillis> wjp: I had a crude one somewhere from last time this came up, I seem to rcall it caused upset with the Windows maintainers ;)
[11:02] Action: DJWillis does not dev. on Windows ;)
[11:03] <DJWillis> wjp: hmmm, time to dig into my old SVN CO's ;) - I'll take a look later if nobody else is going to look into it.
[11:04] <wjp> thanks
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[11:05] <wjp> (I should say I'm not having the best day so far, so sorry if I'm a bit grumpy)
[11:05] <DJWillis> create_msvc10.bat, I assume that is still used to whip up a VS project to try?
[11:05] <wjp> (but that doesn't mean that I don't really think this issue is important :-) )
[11:05] <DJWillis> wjp: nor me (hense actually typing not keeping my gob shut ;-))
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[11:22] <dhewg> DJWillis: we have some fail on the gp2x packaging
[11:23] <DJWillis> dhewg: okies, I thought I tested all that, something stupid, i'll fix in a moment.
[11:25] <dhewg> prolly just something minor, didnt really look at it
[11:25] <dhewg> http://buildbot.scummvm.org/builders/master-gp2x/builds/11/steps/package/logs/stdio
[11:25] <dhewg> and here's the xmllint warning i mentioned: http://buildbot.scummvm.org/builders/master-openpandora/builds/3/steps/package/logs/stdio
[11:28] <DJWillis> dhewg: ahhh, that can't be helped, we shipped a buggy version of the lib really early on (that could still be on devices) that looked for TITLE in the wrong place, cleaned up but with the current validation the warning is the only way to ensure the PXML will work on the older lib (newer versions just pass over it).
[11:29] <DJWillis> dhewg: thanks for picking it up however, so used to seeing it I sort of blank it ;)
[11:29] <dhewg> heh okay ;)
[11:29] <DJWillis> I blame the validation ;)
[11:36] <CIA-26> Strangerke master * raec3a92 / (2 files): TSAGE: R2R - Implement several missing functions in scene1550 - http://git.io/P9lwkQ
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[11:54] <Kirben> UAC is actually confirmed as blocking any attempt to write *.drv? I knew aobut file redirects, but not complete blocks, based on file extension.
[11:55] <dhewg> uac is involved when saving in scummvm?
[11:56] <dhewg> wtf?
[11:56] <fuzzie> Kirben: yes, blocked.
[11:56] <fuzzie> confirmed by me from testing and disassembly of the filter driver.
[11:56] <fuzzie> (on windows 7; don't have vista here)
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[11:57] <fuzzie> there's a whole list in there; exe,dll,sys,drv,msi,js and so forth
[11:58] <Kirben> Nasty, I wonder if that is even documented.
[11:58] <fuzzie> I can't find that documented anywhere, but then I can't find *any* documentation beyond an explanation of what it does.
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[12:05] <Kirben> I have local code that adds default save code (as per locations mentioned on devel) for Windows NT4 onwards, but I was going waiting until after the last 1.4.x. release. Since I thought this change was suited for next major release, especially with no auto migration.
[12:06] <fuzzie> well, in any case it would be harmless to commit it to master?
[12:10] <CIA-26> David-John Willis master * r2294b8a / backends/platform/gph/gp2x-bundle.mk : GPH: Fix silly copy/paste error in GP2X bundle target. - http://git.io/503uKQ
[12:11] <DJWillis> Kirben: cool, I was doing just the same thing but if you have code shove it in master, we can always talk about 1.4.2 on -devel if there is a desire to backport.
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[12:17] <CIA-26> Travis Howell master * r8701e0a / (5 files in 4 dirs): WINDOWS: Add default save paths for Windows NT4 onwards - http://git.io/6Afuqg
[12:17] <Kirben> Hopefully Windows CE port will be uneffected.
[12:18] <dhewg> we should prolly move *nix from $HOME/.scummvm/ to $HOME/.config/scummvm/
[12:18] <fuzzie> for savegames?
[12:18] <DJWillis> Kirben: hmmm, good point ;), oh well, it's master and we need to do something so better to patch up then just hope it goes away (he says not being the person who would have to fix WinCE ;-))
[12:19] <dhewg> fuzzie: yeah, XDG_CONFIG_HOME
[12:19] <dhewg> i mean, all of what we put into .scummvm atm
[12:19] <fuzzie> yeah, i know, i just thought XDG_CONFIG_HOME was config-only
[12:19] <dhewg> putting crap in $HOME is so 80ies
[12:20] <ScummBot> Port build status changed with 8701e0a3: Failure: master-mingw-w64
[12:20] <fuzzie> i mean i'd prefer it be in ~/Documents/ScummVM Saves/ because trying to explain dotfiles drives me mad
[12:20] <dhewg> hm
[12:20] <dhewg> is that a standard too?
[12:20] <fuzzie> or i guess the OS X path for consistency
[12:21] <fuzzie> well, every time I ask about standards for savegames, I am mocked
[12:21] <dhewg> looks like its from a wm?
[12:21] <fuzzie> and pretty much every real-world example uses ~/.gamename/ for saves
[12:22] <dhewg> the games i tried from the official deb repos use XDG_CONFIG_HOME/.gamename
[12:22] <fuzzie> well by 'real-world' i mean anything I looked at where I thought people might want to share games, which was admittedly almost entirely commercial games
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[12:25] <fuzzie> doesn't look like i actually have anything installed from debian that i'd include in that, so i'm not sure what would be good examples.
[12:25] <fuzzie> but it is just thoughts on my part
[12:27] <wjp> Kirben: thanks
[12:28] <dhewg> 0ad puts its config files in XDG_CONFIG_HOME/0ad
[12:28] <dhewg> and its savegames in .local/share/0ad
[12:29] <fuzzie> right, that sounds like a saner standard place
[12:29] <dhewg> latter is XDG_DATA_HOME it seems
[12:30] <dhewg> http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html
[12:30] <fuzzie> yes, i am irritatingly familiar with the spec
[12:30] <dhewg> heh
[12:30] <fuzzie> i dislike the idea of hiding user files where users will never find them, but i also dislike the idea of cluttering up home directories or etc with junk
[12:31] <fuzzie> so just put me down as "hates everything" as usual and carry on, i expect
[12:31] <dhewg> lol
[12:32] <dhewg> XDG_CONFIG_HOME and XDG_DATA_HOME seems sane to me
[12:32] <dhewg> no idea if all the wm's filemanagers have some standard to navigate in there though
[12:32] <fuzzie> do any?
[12:32] <dhewg> im not using any, so dont look at me
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[12:42] <[md5]> hello :) seems that adding a default save directory is a better solution. I always thought that the path we used is pretty much "standard" for Windows. But we never thought about the VirtualStore sillyness...
[12:43] <wjp> hi
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[12:43] <wjp> I think it was standard about 12 years ago :-)
[12:45] <[md5]> heh :p
[12:46] <[md5]> in any case, I don't think that this will actually solve all of the potential problems
[12:46] <wjp> oh?
[12:46] <[md5]> there are games that want to save configuration info
[12:46] <[md5]> I can think of 4 right now
[12:47] <[md5]> so if these files are inside the game files, there is a big possibility that they won't be writeable
[12:47] <wjp> I think I'm missing some context
[12:47] <[md5]> so IMHO the proper solution to this is to add exceptions for these game files and always handle them inside the save game directory
[12:47] <fuzzie> are there any games which don't do that by opening the file, reading it, then saving the file?
[12:47] <fuzzie> because our savegame code doesn't support opening stuff for read/write
[12:47] <[md5]> there are 4 SCI games (that I can think of) which have custom configuration files
[12:47] <fuzzie> so it seems like an engine would have to go to a lot of effort to break in such a case
[12:48] <wjp> but those work, don't they?
[12:48] <[md5]> LSL3 (LL3.DRV), LSL5 (MEMORY.DRV), Hoyle 3 and Hoyle 4
[12:48] <[md5]> the current code first searches if a file exists inside the game folder
[12:48] <[md5]> and then it checks inside the save game directory
[12:48] <wjp> first? really?
[12:48] <[md5]> well, if for example there's a memory.drv file inside the game files of LSL5, it'll be opened
[12:49] <fuzzie> file_open checks savegames first
[12:50] <wjp> I'm pretty sure SCI works fine as it is right now with read-only data files
[12:50] <[md5]> hm
[12:50] <[md5]> say we got this case:
[12:50] <[md5]> memory.drv exists inside the game data files, but not inside the save game folder
[12:50] <[md5]> so...
[12:51] <[md5]> file_open will fall back to that file
[12:51] <fuzzie> so the script does OPEN_OR_FAIL, it finds no savegame copy, then it opens the game data one, reads it, then it does OPEN_OR_CREATE, it is created as savegame, then any new OPEN_OR_FAIL will load the savegame one
[12:51] <[md5]> thus it'll read from that file, but write to another file in the save game folder
[12:51] <[md5]> yes
[12:52] <[md5]> precisely
[12:52] <wjp> and everything is well with the world :-)
[12:52] <fuzzie> if SCI is expecting those two handles to point to the same file, then it should stop doing that
[12:53] <wjp> I don't recall seeing such files opened R and W in parallel
[12:53] <[md5]> that's what I am thinking... ideally, IMHO it should always fall back to the save folder for some game files
[12:53] <[md5]> yes, AFAIK, there is no file which is opened for both read and write access
[12:53] <[md5]> and there's code that prevents that
[12:56] <[md5]> (inside fgets_wrapper())
[12:57] <fuzzie> i mean, i don't know the SCI code, but it looks like file_open picks a handle which isn't open
[12:57] <fuzzie> so if you do file_open on a file for reading then call file_open on the same filename for writing, you end up with disjoint handles, no/
[12:58] <[md5]> hm
[12:59] <[md5]> I think that our common code should prevent that?
[13:01] <wjp> probably not
[13:01] <wjp> but as I said, I don't recall this happening in games
[13:02] <wjp> but maybe we should check
[13:02] <CIA-26> Travis Howell master * r1ab9066 / dists/win32/ScummVM.iss : BUILD: Add Start Menu items for default saved game locations (old and new) to Windows installer. - http://git.io/xCWMog
[13:02] <CIA-26> Travis Howell master * r967193c / NEWS : NEWS: Add default saved games location change on Windows NT4 onwards. - http://git.io/X2Xwjw
[13:03] <wjp> anyway, getting back to windows: what's the current migration plan for saves?
[13:04] <wjp> i.e., say an unsuspecting user upgrades from 1.4.1 to 1.5.0, what'll happen?
[13:05] <Strangerke> is it possible to add something in the installer?
[13:05] <Kirben> They will have to move saved game over manually, the best we could do it copy the complete content of directory where 'scummvm.exe' is located, but we can't be sure what else is stored there.
[13:05] <Strangerke> such as: if savegames present in former folder, copy them
[13:06] <fuzzie> yes, if they've just all been dumped in the same directory then that makes it rather impossible to tell which is which
[13:06] <wjp> can't we expect there isn't anything there other than our own installed files and savegames?
[13:06] <wjp> (and we know the former list)
[13:06] <Kirben> Several games use custom names for save files, which makes a filter impossible.
[13:07] <fuzzie> you could try falling back to the old path when listing/opening savegames
[13:07] <wjp> Kirben: I was suggesting a negative filter
[13:07] <wjp> fuzzie: but that makes deleting impossible
[13:07] <wjp> fuzzie: unless we move when listing, I suppose?
[13:07] <[md5]> hm, how about adding a simple batch file that would copy over save files from the old directory to the new one?
[13:07] <fuzzie> well, I guess we could just check the virtualstore directly?
[13:07] <fuzzie> [md5]: we don't know which files are which
[13:07] <[md5]> well, we don't need to know?
[13:08] <wjp> checking the virtualstore might work
[13:08] <wjp> can we?
[13:08] <wjp> hm, or does that break when users have admin rights?
[13:08] <[md5]> we only need to copy everything from folder A to folder B, and only for the default folders
[13:08] <fuzzie> well, people might get annoyed if we try copying their game iso files or whatever across, unless you mean just providing a batch file
[13:08] <fuzzie> is i think the point being made here
[13:08] <wjp> oh, people may indeed be strange enough to put isos there I suppose :/
[13:10] <[md5]> hrm
[13:10] <[md5]> true
[13:10] <Kirben> Checking virtualstore might not be enough either, if it has ever been disabled. Since saved games could be in ScummVM directory, or the virtualstore.
[13:12] <[md5]> yeah, but again there will only be two possible default locations, right?
[13:12] <[md5]> and we could check for file sizes inside the batch file, and skip large files (i.e. everything larger than, say, 500KB)
[13:12] <Kirben> Yes, with duplicate files possible in that case too.
[13:13] <[md5]> yeah, indeed
[13:13] <[md5]> but this would be a simple batch file, linked inside the start menu
[13:14] <[md5]> usually, people who actually bothered to change the save location will bother enough to change it again, I suppose
[13:14] <[md5]> people who haven't changed it, ever, will be the only ones who will actually need help moving their save files
[13:14] <dhewg> present a one-time dialog to move to the new location, and let the user decide?
[13:15] <[md5]> sounds reasonable
[13:15] <dhewg> if they put multiple gb in there, its their fault
[13:15] <[md5]> yeah
[13:16] <[md5]> and we can ask for administrator rights in a batch file
[13:16] <[md5]> so this shouldn't be an issue
[13:22] <dhewg> fine mess you got there! :P
[13:23] <dhewg> thats almost as messy as the droid situation. before fuzzie fixed it
[13:25] <Kirben> It should be a simple task (i.e. copy "%ProgramFiles%\ScummVM\" "%APPDATA%\ScummVM\Saved Games" ) for a batch script, it is just handling the unexpected.
[13:26] <[md5]> will UAC allow that to work?
[13:27] <Kirben> I would hope so, since Program Files is only been read from, but I'm still on Windows XP, so can't check.
[13:27] <[md5]> let's see
[13:27] <[md5]> (on Windows 7 here)
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[13:33] <[md5]> Kirben: that seems to work from a non-elevated prompt
[13:33] <[md5]> I tried it locally, and this worked:
[13:34] <[md5]> copy "%ProgramFiles%\7-Zip\readme.txt" "%appdata%\7-Zip\readme.test.txt"
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[13:35] <droid2727> ...
[13:35] Action: [md5] sees an angry droid
[13:36] <wjp> wouldn't we want a move instead of a copy?
[13:37] <[md5]> wjp: yeah, we would. This would move over potential large files immediately, too
[13:39] <dhewg> why do you have to resort to .bat files?
[13:39] <[md5]> as opposed to?
[13:39] <dhewg> code?
[13:39] <[md5]> what kind of code?
[13:40] <[md5]> don't expect Windows users to have things like Perl preinstalled :P
[13:40] <dhewg> code in scummvm that checks if the new location exists, if not checks if the old one does, and then copies from old to new... or something like that
[13:40] <[md5]> oh
[13:41] <[md5]> well, we got something like this in the sword1 savegame conversion code
[13:45] <[md5]> i.e. sword1/control.cpp, functions checkForOldSaveGames() and convertSaveGame()
[13:45] <Kirben> If we put it in code, how to tell when to mirgrate over? and what to do it if gets triggered a second time (i.e. conflicts/overwrites)?
[13:46] <wjp> you'll have to handle that situation no matter where we put it, though
[13:46] <[md5]> indeed
[13:47] <Kirben> Well the batch file would be optional item on Start Menu, and simply prompt for overwrites.
[13:47] <dhewg> ...in a dos prompt, thats not a nice user experience
[13:48] <dhewg> you could check for the existance of the dir. or maybe a configvar that gets set when it has been triggered
[13:49] <wjp> just to complicate things: are there any multi-user issues that need consideration?
[13:50] <Kirben> A config file can be reset, or empty if user is changed. While saved game directly won't exist on fresh install either.
[13:51] <fuzzie> this is why i suggested checking virtualstore
[13:52] <fuzzie> but hadn't considered the dir being moved on pre-vista
[13:54] <wjp> would admin users have a virtual store at all?
[13:55] <fuzzie> well my personal bias would be that if you run as a non-UACed admin on post-xp then you can deal with the savegame issues yourself
[13:55] <Kirben> That won't help if UAC was disabled though, a copy of the ScummVM directory should auto include virtualstore, if UAC is still enabled.
[13:55] <fuzzie> but this also breaks e.g. people who unpackaged a scummvm into their homedir
[13:57] <fuzzie> Kirben: i mean, you could check the virtualstore to see if you're in the 'scummvm saves have not yet been moved' situation, to avoid false positives.
[13:57] <fuzzie> except you can't due to these issues, but that's what i meant.
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[14:17] <Kirben> Possible batch file - http://members.optusnet.com.au/kirbenau/test.bat - assumes it is in ScummVM directory.
[14:17] <LordHoto> is there any reason we moved the save game folder to a hidden directory btw.? I mean we have these links in the start menu, *if* you use the installer
[14:17] <LordHoto> but still it seems a bit odd
[14:19] <DJWillis> LordHoto: I think that is why "CSIDL_DEFAULT_MYDOCUMENTS\My Games" is often used by lots of apps over the hidden folders but I am now staying out of this debate now ;).
[14:19] <Kirben> 1. It is similar to standard location (APPDATA/Saved Games/Program) added in Windows Vista/7 2. It keeps all ScummVM related files in same area.
[14:20] <[md5]> regarding the batch file, you can merge tests 2 - 4 in one
[14:20] <LordHoto> hu? isn't Win7/Vista using a directory in the user's document files?
[14:20] <[md5]> and why is there test 1?
[14:21] <LordHoto> i.e. in a place he can access by the explorer just fine without showing hidden files
[14:21] <[md5]> "if exist "%APPDATA%\ScummVM\Saved Games\" goto :copyfiles" should work on its own, right?
[14:22] <Kirben> [md5]: I split tests to offer more specific errors, and tried to cover all possible problems when getting saved games location.
[14:22] <LordHoto> personally I would've preferred if everything would've just moved to an easy to access location
[14:23] <LordHoto> but that's just me, it seems just a bit odd to keep saves hidden and to me it's usually an annoying issue for windows games in general
[14:23] <Kirben> LordHoto: No, that is the location Microsoft picked - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_folder
[14:23] <fuzzie> Saved Games is not under appdata
[14:23] <LordHoto> yes it's not under appdata
[14:23] <LordHoto> that's why I am saying
[14:23] <fuzzie> which I guess is also on that wikipedia page
[14:23] <LordHoto> the wikipedia link also says:
[14:23] <LordHoto> %USERPROFILE%\Saved games
[14:24] <Kirben> %USERPROFILE% is APPDATA
[14:24] <fuzzie> see also dhewg earlier asking why we don't save in .local/ on *nix and me wondering why we insist on using hidden directories there too
[14:24] <fuzzie> Kirben: no it isnt
[14:24] <LordHoto> I doubt that
[14:24] <LordHoto> on my Win 7 install it's just plainly in my user folder
[14:24] <fuzzie> i'm on win7 right here, %USERPROFILE% is c:\users\alyssa.
[14:25] <Kirben> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd378457%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
[14:25] <fuzzie> (and indeed Saved Games is under there, complete with pretty icon and all)
[14:26] <LordHoto> Kirben: what about it?
[14:26] <Kirben> There were name changes to folders in Vista, but it is still classed as APPDATA area.
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[14:26] <LordHoto> at any rate Saved Games is just in our user directory
[14:26] <LordHoto> not in the AppData hidden subdirectory
[14:27] <LordHoto> in your user*
[14:27] <fuzzie> i mean, it says right there, FOLDERID_SavedGames, %USERPROFILE%\Saved Games
[14:27] <fuzzie> (note that I don't care at all about the path scummvm uses)
[14:27] <LordHoto> yes and I doubt "%USERPROFILE%" is the same as "%APPDATA%"
[14:28] <LordHoto> don't see why some new default paths use %APPDATA% instead of %USERPROFILE% then anyway
[14:28] <fuzzie> well, the values of %USERPROFILE% are also covered at the bottom of the page
[14:29] <LordHoto> see if the move was done for consistency, then fine with me
[14:29] <fuzzie> basically anything which users shouldn't touch directly should be in %APPDATA%
[14:29] <fuzzie> and it seems pretty consistent there
[14:29] <LordHoto> but it's still a bit odd why we don't move the save games to an easy to access location
[14:29] <LordHoto> if that decision was thoughtfully done, fine with me
[14:30] <LordHoto> the only reason I see so far is that we did it for consistency though
[14:30] <LordHoto> (i.e. consistency with where the other ScummVM related files are stored)
[14:33] <Kirben> Too tired, your right %USERPROFILE%\Saved Games, rather than %USERPROFILE%\Application Data\Saved Games. Either way the majority of the user specific area is usually hidden.
[14:34] <LordHoto> yeah, but I think they moved "Saved Games" to a non-hidden area for a reason
[14:35] <LordHoto> anyway, if you're tired, there's no sense in discussion about this right now
[14:35] <fuzzie> well, because everyone was cluttering up My Documents with it
[14:40] <Kirben> Any further discussion about locations should have gone to devel anyway, I assumed no further objections, since there we no more developer replies.
[14:41] <LordHoto> I think some people expressed it would be better to move it to %USERPROFILE%
[14:42] <LordHoto> and then there's virtually nothing about it at all anymore till the change was implemented today
[14:43] <matan> LordHoto: i think the newest windows guidelines ask applications to use %APPDATA%
[14:43] <LordHoto> for saved games?
[14:43] <matan> with their whole "moving away from the registry" methodology
[14:43] <fuzzie> the newest windows guidelines tell people to use the clearly-marked saved games directory with pretty icon
[14:43] <matan> for any app data
[14:43] <LordHoto> that's probably why they introduced "Saved Games" in your user profile dir
[14:43] <matan> but windows 7 does have a saved games folder
[14:44] <matan> a lot of games though put stuff in my documents\My Games
[14:45] <LordHoto> we are all pretty aware of that
[14:45] <LordHoto> but I don't see why I should talk about this any longer
[14:45] <LordHoto> so if you want to share your opinion drop a reply to the thread on -devel abou it
[14:46] <matan> im not sharing an opinion on where it should be :)
[14:46] <matan> just thought this would be useful information
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[14:48] <dhewg> do we use libpng?
[14:48] <LordHoto> yes and no
[14:48] <LordHoto> the PSP backend uses it
[14:48] <fuzzie> not on all platforms
[14:48] <dhewg> mingw in this case
[14:48] <LordHoto> not anymore I think
[14:49] <LordHoto> configure should be set to never check for libpng anymore
[14:49] <LordHoto> i.e. always mark it as "no"
[14:49] <dhewg> yeah, but it still reports about it
[14:49] <dhewg> giving the impression it would be useful
[14:50] <LordHoto> yeah, maybe we can just remove it alltogether
[14:50] <fuzzie> there was some discussion at some point about wanting png support for something else
[14:50] <fuzzie> and I have promptly forgotten what
[14:51] <LordHoto> I think we might use the detection for the PSP port
[14:51] <LordHoto> I think currently it just assumes you have libpng installed
[14:51] <fuzzie> oh, no, I am misremembering
[14:52] <LordHoto> apart we can probably just strip off the libpng detection etc. from configure
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[15:02] <[md5]> only scummvm-tools uses libpng now, AFAIK (to convert to DXA)
[15:03] <LordHoto> we don't do tools builds on buildbot though, so it's not really much of interest
[15:04] <DJWillis> Was it some out of tree engine that needed libPNG? I seem to recall something like that.
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[15:05] <fuzzie> DJWillis: sword25 was using it, but we now have in-tree code which handles the simple png reading cases it needs (thanks to [md5] I think?).
[15:07] <DJWillis> fuzzie: cool
[15:07] <DJWillis> What state is Sword25 in these days? Worth another look for backend guys?
[15:07] <fuzzie> it's 800x600, so not interesting unless your hardware can do that
[15:07] <dhewg> and it doesnt work when using plugins
[15:08] <[md5]> regarding libpng: what fuzzie said pretty much covers the situation
[15:08] <[md5]> as for sword25... yeah, it's 800x600
[15:08] <DJWillis> fuzzie: well scale is not an issue on something like the OpenPandora but the lack of plugin support kills it for now ;)
[15:08] <[md5]> and why isn't it working with plugins?
[15:08] <[md5]> (out of curiosity)
[15:08] <dhewg> it references libtheora symbols
[15:08] <[md5]> oh, right
[15:08] <[md5]> hm
[15:09] <fuzzie> DJWillis: the pandora is 800x480, no?
[15:09] <[md5]> well, you can disable libtheora, thereby killing the videos
[15:09] <droid2727> just chop off the bottom and top of the screen
[15:09] <droid2727> it's only 120 rows
[15:10] <LordHoto> dhewg: yeah that plugin issue is something we still need to take care of
[15:10] <[md5]> but I suppose that we should move the theora decoder to common to address this?
[15:10] <DJWillis> fuzzie: yep, but scaling in hardware is not all that hard. If I ever went back to look at the GLes stuff I guess you could just deal with that surface to suit ;).
[15:10] <fuzzie> droid2727: right, but you'd have to hack the engine to make it work?
[15:10] <DJWillis> fuzzie: so just should a 640*480 scaled version.
[15:10] <[md5]> (and only enable it if sword25 is enabled)
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[15:11] <clone2728> *grml*
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[15:12] <droid2727> fuzzie: hack the backend, of course!
[15:12] <fuzzie> hack the backend to make the vital UI elements at the top and bottom of the screen appear in a more useful place? :p
[15:13] <droid2727> Nah, just don't use the vital UI
[15:13] <droid2727> can't be too vital!
[15:13] <DJWillis> Or just scale it in the backend like I said, much less hackish ;-)
[15:13] <fuzzie> "Broken Sword 2.5: Wandering Aimlessly Edition"
[15:13] <[md5]> xD
[15:14] <fuzzie> DJWillis: well it seems like it'd look silly but if that's your idea of fun :)
[15:14] <DJWillis> Actually, I like the tag line ;)
[15:14] <[md5]> "Magnificent! Watch George looking at the sky for hours!"
[15:14] <droid2727> "Special Edition" still would work too
[15:14] <fuzzie> of course the other problem is that it's barely playable on a dual-core 1ghz ARM, but I'm sure some overclocking would solve that one too
[15:15] <DJWillis> fuzzie: well it depends, I hate scaling personally but users seem to love it (same as the old 640*480/400 scale to 320*240/200 on the GOPH devices/WinCE etc.).
[15:15] <LordHoto> WinCE at least featured some zoomed mode so 640x480 games are actually playable :-P
[15:16] <DJWillis> If I have to scale I am keeping the aspect by default or it really turns to crap ;) - Yep, the single A8 ARM in the OP is not going to like it ;-)
[15:16] <fuzzie> ouch
[15:16] <droid2727> Well, I'm in the camp of "always preserve the aspect ratio"
[15:17] <droid2727> including my TV which has proven to not be the easiest task
[15:17] <DJWillis> fuzzie: I went to take it out and got loads of hate for it (scaling that is). I guess with OGL we can make it 'to the users taste' even if there taste is sick ;-)
[15:19] <DJWillis> Anyway, as the engine requires an 8 way CPU and 4TB of heap I think I will not worry about it just now ;)
[15:20] <droid2727> That might not be enough either
[15:21] <matan> it's really had to play 320x240 on a 2560x1600 monitor :)
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[15:27] <[md5]> the engine does need profiling
[15:27] <[md5]> to cut down the CPU usage
[15:28] <[md5]> I've managed to reduce its memory usage a bit, but it still uses tons of it
[15:28] <[md5]> the original engine preloads everything to memory
[15:28] <[md5]> and only cleans it up on exit
[15:28] <[md5]> (that includes stuff like sprites, scene backgrounds etc)
[15:29] <DJWillis> [md5]: Ouch
[15:29] <[md5]> yeah
[15:30] <[md5]> :/
[15:30] <[md5]> I've added a rudimentary resource manager that tries to be clever and purge resources
[15:31] <DJWillis> [md5]: sounds like a very sensible move, not familiar with the code but I assume grafting that in was hard work.
[15:31] <[md5]> but the engine still needs tweaking to work on devices will scarce resources
[15:31] <DJWillis> [md5]: how was the game data done for 2.5, are there tools for that or is all it munged into the engine/LUA
[15:32] <[md5]> the game data consists of PNG images, OGG sound samples, Theora videos and LUA scripts
[15:32] <[md5]> all packaged in a large zip file
[15:33] <fuzzie> yes, aforementioned 1ghz testing was on device with ~700mb available for scummvm, too
[15:33] <[md5]> the LUA scripts are in text format
[15:33] <fuzzie> although I didn't think it used *that* much from memory?
[15:33] <[md5]> I don't remember how much it uses now, it's been awhile since I tinkered with it
[15:33] <fuzzie> since you're bound to have 256mb or so on devices which could even think about doing this, you'd think
[15:34] <[md5]> but it pretty much needs libogg to be compiled in, too (otherwise you get no speech/music)
[15:35] <droid2727> or video
[15:35] <[md5]> ah yes, the video needs libogg too
[15:35] <[md5]> together with libtheora
[15:36] <[md5]> but ogg should be available in most platforms
[15:36] <[md5]> at least I hope it is
[15:36] <droid2727> I believe it is, except probably the DS port
[15:37] <[md5]> yeah, but the DS port doesn't even have zlib in, so the game won't work there anyway
[15:37] <[md5]> it won't work there because of the resolution either, but that's another story :P
[15:37] <droid2727> Psh
[15:38] <[md5]> anyway, there's also the problem of savegame compatibility
[15:39] <[md5]> sorry, savegame endianess
[15:39] <fuzzie> well, sev has a Plan for that
[15:40] <wjp> (and it's more than just endianness, right?)
[15:40] <[md5]> right... sev wanted to hack Pluto for that
[15:40] <[md5]> the Right Way (TM) would probably be to get rid of Pluto and use a serializer
[15:40] <[md5]> but that could take ages
[15:42] <[md5]> anyway, I'm off, see you later
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[17:37] <CIA-26> dhewg * r56236 /buildbot/config/master.cfg: BUILDBOT: Update the mingw-w64 toolchain
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[17:39] <CIA-26> dhewg master * r77c9be7 / common/forbidden.h :
[17:39] <CIA-26> COMMON: Fix compilation with mingw-w64
[17:39] <CIA-26> setjmp and longjmp are being used in system headers.
[17:39] <CIA-26> Allow these symbols globally instead of hacking the appropriate
[17:39] <CIA-26> defines in every file including windows.h. - http://git.io/hh3BvQ
[17:39] <CIA-26> dhewg master * r51778ed / backends/taskbar/win32/win32-taskbar.cpp :
[17:39] <CIA-26> TASKBAR: Fix compilation with mingw-w64
[17:39] <CIA-26> mingw-compat.h is not required for newer mingw-w64, all required
[17:39] <CIA-26> symbols are present in the system headers. - http://git.io/U4NJRw
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[18:05] <wjp> dhewg: wouldn't it be cleaner to conditionally define FORBIDDEN_SYMBOL_EXCEPTION_setjmp somewhere (maybe scummsys.h?) instead of putting those conditionals in forbidden.h itself?
[18:05] <wjp> also, is the top of common/math.h related?
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[18:07] <dhewg> yeah, i guess we could move those exceptions to scummsys.h
[18:07] <dhewg> and yes, that math.h thing is related
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[18:07] <DrMcCoy> :(
[18:08] <dhewg> same include the error origins from with mingw-w64
[18:08] <dhewg> so looks like msvc is also affected
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[18:08] <dhewg> that thing is even more ugly
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[18:10] <dhewg> but i gotta run now, so if noone beats me to it im gonna do it tomorrow or so
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[18:56] <clone2728> omfg
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[18:57] <clone2728> this is getting ridiculous
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[18:58] <eriktorbjorn> Attack of the Clones?
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[19:23] <fuzzie> hrm :/
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[19:35] <syke> in C++, is there a way to do a catch(...) ad get the typeid of the caught exception?
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[19:38] <tsoliman> hi all
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[20:19] <vpelletier> too bad it didn't degenerate into a clone war... it's not even a clone skirmish
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[00:00] --- Tue Jan 24 2012