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[07:09] <fuzzie> morning
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[09:08] <tmx1> do those different sound card options really make any difference in scummvm? i cant hear anything personally
[09:09] <fuzzie> which ones?
[09:10] <tmx1> for music device.. MS Wavetable, MT32, Adlib etc
[09:10] <fuzzie> if you don't hear a difference, then the game you're using probably isn't using MIDI music
[09:10] <tmx1> its The DIg
[09:10] <fuzzie> then indeed, that is all digital audio
[09:10] <fuzzie> so you shouldn't hear a difference :)
[09:10] <tmx1> aha
[09:13] <fuzzie> (the SCUMM games using digital music are Full Throttle, The Dig and COMI, I guess)
[09:13] <James|GlideM> Discworld 2 as well
[09:13] <tmx1> what about the gfx? will it ever get full d3d support to match the lcd native res?
[09:13] <tmx1> so theres no full screen lag?
[09:13] <fuzzie> no-one has even mentioned d3d
[09:14] <fuzzie> but you can try the opengl renderer if you're using a build from the development tree
[09:14] <tmx1> i am
[09:14] <tmx1> same res changing lag
[09:14] <tmx1> meaning it wont do native res
[09:15] <fuzzie> and you're using opengl?
[09:15] <tmx1> yes
[09:15] <tmx1> i tried all 3 versions of OGL
[09:17] <tmx1> wait a sec.. my lcd is running 59hz!! argh
[09:17] <tmx1> maybe thats why
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[09:20] <fuzzie> o.O
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[10:43] <Strangerke> hi guys
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[11:23] <James|GlideM> Strangerke Do you know if BASS floppy version has ending music that the CD version doesnt?
[11:23] <Strangerke> no, sorry
[11:24] <James|GlideM> fuzzie ^
[11:24] <fuzzie> i don't think so?
[11:25] <James|GlideM> There is a midi track I have called Outro and someone mentioned on my website that this track is missing, so trying to work out what's the location exactly
[11:27] <Strangerke> eriktorbjorn: maybe you know?
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[11:28] <fuzzie> i don't think there's any way to play music that isn't in a section, other than the music used in the intro
[11:28] <James|GlideM> Indeed, but this music has come from somewhere
[11:28] <James|GlideM> leave it with me
[11:29] Nick change: edheldil -> Ed_lunch
[11:29] <fuzzie> well, of course the music from the intro is in a section too, but you get the idea
[11:29] <James|GlideM> fuzzie - remind me how do I jump to a section within the game?
[11:30] <fuzzie> fn_enter_section <id, from 0 to 6>
[11:31] <James|GlideM> cheers
[11:32] <James|GlideM> you sure that is correct?
[11:32] <fuzzie> no, not at all :P postman has struggled through the snow to deliver me a coffee machine, but it is still burbling
[11:32] <James|GlideM> he he
[11:33] <fuzzie> does it not work?
[11:33] <James|GlideM> alas not
[11:33] <fuzzie> ah, 'section <id>' i guess.
[11:33] <James|GlideM> ha ha thats it
[11:34] <James|GlideM> Last question of the day... how do I play a music track from command line?
[11:34] <fuzzie> wjp originally suggested "logiccmd fn_start_music #"
[11:35] <James|GlideM> I will find this track somehow he he
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[11:43] <fuzzie> well, if you want someone who might know, who better than joostp?
[11:44] <James|GlideM> Looking on YouTube , there is an additional track
[11:44] <James|GlideM> Cant find it in the sections though
[11:45] <joostp> hm?
[11:45] <fuzzie> James is trying to work out where a BASS track called 'Outro' should be used.
[11:46] <joostp> what does it sound like?
[11:46] <James|GlideM> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwj8vlhUItk
[11:46] <James|GlideM> Jump to about 7:30
[11:47] <James|GlideM> youll notice a slow track start about 7 40
[11:47] <James|GlideM> cant find it in any of the sections of music within the command line
[11:47] <fuzzie> well, I guess work out if the MIDI one is played in scummvm there? if it is, trivial to track down
[11:49] <joostp> is it not section 5 track 3?
[11:50] <James|GlideM> On mine that cashes ScummVM
[11:51] <James|GlideM> Music 3 required but doesnt exist in file
[11:51] <fuzzie> on the floppy version?
[11:51] <James|GlideM> Both
[11:52] <fuzzie> i am remapping the floppy intro (0/1) to 5/3, so it doesn't make much sense if it doesn't exist
[11:55] <joostp> the 503 in your set does sound like the intro, yes
[11:55] <joostp> 'your set' being bassv1_high.zip
[11:56] <joostp> but they are not the same track
[11:57] <James|GlideM> So the intro should be what filename?
[11:57] <James|GlideM> and the outro should be music_503?
[11:57] <fuzzie> the intro should be 001
[11:57] <joostp> yes
[11:58] <James|GlideM> hmmm
[11:58] <James|GlideM> So we don't confuse the community, can we remap the outro to 001?
[11:59] <James|GlideM> Then I can update the music without affecting current users or explaning the weirdness
[12:00] <joostp> feels wrong, but it's the least invasive upgrade path I suppose...
[12:01] <joostp> did no-one copy/paste the mapping from the iOS version of BASS?
[12:01] <fuzzie> I carefully left the loop-disabling code in for 0/1 so it can be done, although I don't think doing it without both a comment in the code *and* somewhere along with your music is a good idea.
[12:01] <fuzzie> joostp: yes, but it doesn't have the floppy tracks
[12:01] <James|GlideM> joostp, Yes but the iOS version is the CD version so didnt have the original MIDI intro
[12:01] <joostp> right
[12:02] <joostp> I thought I included that track anyway, but guess not
[12:02] <fuzzie> well, I don't have the iOS version, but the track wasn't handled by the code, so added it
[12:03] <fuzzie> and then was told on IRC that I also needed to map 0/1 to 5/3 because they were identical, so added that in later commit :)
[12:05] <fuzzie> something like http://pastebin.com/Cepeb6Cj then?
[12:06] Nick change: Ed_lunch -> edheldil
[12:07] <joostp> yeah, looks OK to me
[12:07] <joostp> though we might as well use a different name
[12:08] <fuzzie> e.g. 700?
[12:08] <joostp> yes
[12:09] <joostp> then the problem could be 'properly' fixed over time, if one was so inclined.
[12:09] <fuzzie> well, my personal bias would be to just use the proper 503/001, since people who care enough will update :)
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[12:10] <James|GlideM> OK go for the proper track listing
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[12:13] <fuzzie> James|GlideM: you'll swap your 503 back to 001?
[12:13] <James|GlideM> Yep
[12:13] <James|GlideM> I will release corrected version once the daily build goes through
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[12:14] <CIA-23> Alyssa Milburn master * rb9a93f3 / engines/sky/music/musicbase.cpp :
[12:14] <CIA-23> Revert "SKY: Map the floppy intro track."
[12:14] <CIA-23> This reverts commit 0599145ecf92aeabf5bd4221a91761237f970323.
[12:14] <CIA-23> This mapping was incorrect, 503 is the outro. - http://git.io/2mAxFA
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[12:15] <fuzzie> joostp: thanks
[12:15] <James|GlideM> Thanks fuzzie and joostp
[12:15] <joostp> np
[12:15] <James|GlideM> I assume the ending will work without any additional code now?
[12:15] <fuzzie> yes
[12:15] <James|GlideM> ok
[12:15] <fuzzie> well, in theory
[12:15] <James|GlideM> he he
[12:16] <James|GlideM> Right time for lunch... thanks again
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[12:24] <James|GlideM> joostp, if you ever update the iOS version - music_101 is identical to 411 in that listing
[12:24] <James|GlideM> Although it never calls 101
[12:24] <James|GlideM> being based on CD version
[12:25] <fuzzie> oh? they did loop 101 in the iOS version.
[12:25] <fuzzie> and 411.
[12:25] <James|GlideM> oh
[12:25] <James|GlideM> fun fun
[12:25] <fuzzie> i mean, disable loop
[12:25] <joostp> yes, it's the death screen, so no loop
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[12:26] <fuzzie> it was quite helpful to discover the iOS one since I was pulling my hair out trying to make my own list :
[12:26] <fuzzie> plus showing people the twitter support in the input code was weeks of entertainment
[12:27] <joostp> don't look at me, that was all tony!
[12:28] <James|GlideM> joostp, do you want the MP3 versions in case it is ever added to iOS?
[12:28] <fuzzie> I just charitably assumed that whoever did it was forced to by some cruel upper management taskmaster.
[12:29] <joostp> James|GlideM: Hmmm, good question. :)
[12:29] <joostp> I suppose there are no legal problems? i.e. you don't mind it being used?
[12:29] <James|GlideM> No not at all
[12:29] <James|GlideM> Tony seemed interested, he was just thinking of the time to do it etc
[12:30] <James|GlideM> As long as you can plonk a credit in for me somewhere with a link to my site I will be happy
[12:30] <joostp> yeah, we're quite busy now, so unless there is a good reason to do an update we most likely won't do one...
[12:30] <joostp> but it may be good to have the files anyway
[12:30] <joostp> sure, that'd be the least we could do
[12:31] <James|GlideM> ok Ill PM link
[12:31] <joostp> ta
[12:32] <joostp> btw. to play that outro music in ScummVM you need to be in `section 6`
[12:32] <joostp> I forgot why/where, but there's a -1 someplace
[12:32] <James|GlideM> ahh
[12:36] <joostp> actually, looking at it, it's more confusing than that, but I won't bore you with the details ;)
[12:37] <wjp> joostp: am I right in my conclusion that there are Discworld 1 versions with different numbers of globals, and that this breaks savegame compatibility between those version, but that we don't check for this?
[12:38] <joostp> wjp: euh... dunno, but you could be right.
[12:38] <joostp> doubt that helps much though.. :)
[12:40] <wjp> any suggestions for other people to poke? :-)
[12:41] <joostp> I don't remember who it was who (re)wrote the save/load code. Maybe Fingolfin or _dreammaster
[12:42] <joostp> did you confirm there are different versions with a different number of globals?
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[12:48] <wjp> it seems to be the most logical conclusion for digitall's crash in http://sourceforge.net/support/tracker.php?aid=3482728
[12:48] <wjp> (which is likely unrelated to the actual bug report)
[12:49] <wjp> digitall gets differently sized savegames, and a restore crash in HoldItem, and at a quick glance the only variable-size block of data before the held item is the block of global vars
[12:49] <wjp> s/variable-size/non-fixed-size/, to avoid the duplicate use of the word variable...
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[16:29] <fuzzie> wjp/LordHoto: re GSoC: are RE tasks really not worth considering?
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[16:30] <LordHoto> fuzzie: well depends, they have a pretty high entry barrier at any rate
[16:30] <LordHoto> fuzzie: it's not like we won't put any task descriptions about them on the page though
[16:31] <LordHoto> fuzzie: but a "please RE game X" task is definitly not worth considering ;-)
[16:31] <fuzzie> just thinking that all the tasks people seem to agree on seem to always basically be mindnumbing refactoring stuff
[16:31] <fuzzie> so the only "shiny" ends up being your RE pondering
[16:32] <LordHoto> in fact the theme/layout stuff for android etc. devices isn't that much of a refactoring task either
[16:32] <fuzzie> yes, but I think it would probably end up *being* such a task by the time everyone was done arguing over how it should be done
[16:33] <fuzzie> as wjp indeed mentions I suppose
[16:34] <LordHoto> there's not that many people arguing over how it should be done in the GSoC tasks usually
[16:34] <LordHoto> except, it's a feature, which is controversal anyways
[16:36] <wjp> external graphical SCI debugger could also be quite fun
[16:37] <wjp> SCI audio that LordHoto mentioned might be a good one
[16:37] <LordHoto> in fact SCI is the only engine I can think of right now, where getting people working on it, might give us long term contributors :-P
[16:38] <LordHoto> adding features to say SCUMM is pretty hard to follow up with further work specifically on that engine
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[16:43] <fuzzie> it just seems that there is little harm in suggesting *interesting* things on the tasks page I guess
[16:44] <wjp> go for it :-)
[16:44] <fuzzie> just if I were a GSoC student then I'd find ScummVM so .. boring? :)
[16:44] <LordHoto> ScummVM isn't boring?
[16:45] <wjp> I wonder how high that line will get on searches for "gsoc scummvm" :-)
[16:45] <fuzzie> and it seems like there could be various possibilities for tasks if the end-goal is not "must actually end up useful to us"
[16:45] <LordHoto> well I thought about that too
[16:46] <fuzzie> which is the subtext I am reading in all this scummvm GSoC discussion
[16:46] <wjp> that wouldn't be a strict requirement for me
[16:46] <LordHoto> but frankly, what motivation is it if you know it's not clear whether your work will actually be used ;-)
[16:46] <fuzzie> well, being paid for doing cool stuff!
[16:47] <wjp> or it could be useful for other-people-than-us
[16:47] <LordHoto> and what things do we want to mentor, when we might know beforehand, that it would be just something to try for fun, but nothing really what we could/would add
[16:47] <wjp> I don't like all these "we want this but nobody seems motivated to work on it so it must be a perfect task" things
[16:47] <LordHoto> yeah that's the ground line of most tasks ;-)
[16:48] <LordHoto> though sometimes it's also "where nobody has time on it" instead of "nobody seems motivated"
[16:48] <fuzzie> but, well, "something to try for fun" would encaspulate various RE tasks
[16:48] <LordHoto> like?
[16:48] <fuzzie> as long as there's some way to milestone them in nice chunks
[16:49] <fuzzie> but if anyone *has* any suggestions for game stuff, for example, I'm sure you could come up with milestones for REing anything
[16:49] <fuzzie> or inchstones, as the mentor's guide puts it
[16:50] <fuzzie> and the same for all your RE ideas
[16:54] <LordHoto> I can come up with at least one milestone for every task out there: "finished the task" ;-P
[16:54] <wjp> let's get some good ideas out there without worrying about usefulness or scope or such things too much at first
[16:55] <LordHoto> was just about to say: I don't think we should work on how to organize the work on the task just yet
[16:55] <fuzzie> yes, I'm just saying that if you have a task which is huuuge like REing a game, it's not as if it isn't an interesting and maybe-useful task to RE as much as possible
[16:55] <fuzzie> you don't actually have to make the end milestone "finish the engine"
[16:56] <wjp> I agree entirely
[16:56] <fuzzie> I just don't know if anyone actually has any suggestions for that.
[16:56] <LordHoto> sure, but in the case of asking the student to work on a game nobody looked into so far, makes it usually pretty hard to come up with those milestones
[16:57] <LordHoto> so I'm just for adding tasks of that size/direction, if we actually have somebody with a rough overview on it
[16:57] <joostp> SCI2.1+ might be good for that
[16:57] <fuzzie> right, but some of the point of having a mentor is that the milestones can be completely changed as you go
[16:58] <LordHoto> right, but if you have no idea about the engine, asking the student to come up with a good description of what sub-task he wants to do, is pretty much a fun-killer too ;-)
[16:58] <LordHoto> joostp: yup, SCI is definitly the best engine in tree, where we could have some tasks for
[16:58] <wjp> clearly the mentor would have to do some preparation here :-)
[16:58] <wjp> but let's not worry about practical things like that too much at this point yet
[16:59] <LordHoto> I'm just saying, please don't add tasks like "finish something for support of game X", if you have no idea about X technically at all
[16:59] <LordHoto> this is why I won't write any task descriptions for the SCI tasks I proposed ;-)
[16:59] <wjp> well, I wouldn't mind. It'll just get killed again if that task doesn't improve within a few weeks
[17:00] <LordHoto> wjp: *cough* yeah, like the XMIDI parser task *cough*
[17:00] <LordHoto> maybe we can do just two lists
[17:00] <LordHoto> one list of concrete tasks and one of ideas, where people can come up with (sub)tasks of themselves
[17:00] <LordHoto> or maybe we just want to go with the latter this time...
[17:00] <LordHoto> by themselves*
[17:01] <fuzzie> the tasks page does also seem a bit overly-complicated but I don't know the history
[17:01] <LordHoto> I'm having no problems if you want to revamp it totally
[17:01] <LordHoto> I'm actually all for removing the "workload" bits as I said in my mail ;-)
[17:01] <fuzzie> am still poking through my 'things I would like to do' list and trying to work out if any of them aren't horribl
[17:01] <fuzzie> e
[17:02] <LordHoto> if I go though that list of mine, I always end up with the boring refactoring related tasks somehow, except for some small tasks, like adding audio output X to engine Y ;-)
[17:02] <LordHoto> through*
[17:02] <fuzzie> unfortunately in terms of new engines, I am nervous about suggesting anything for fear that someone will come out of the woodwork and say they're already working on it
[17:03] <wjp> better do it early on then?
[17:03] <fuzzie> all the *cool* tasks are non-adventure games :(
[17:03] <wjp> "task: set up a new project scummvm-rpg"? :-)
[17:04] <wjp> (which I'm actually not 100% joking about...)
[17:04] <wjp> (well, I am 100% joking about it in a gsoc context)
[17:04] <LordHoto> wjp just wants to merge exult into some bigger project ;-)
[17:04] <wjp> shh :-)
[17:05] <fuzzie> i think that would be fairly cruel to the students :p
[17:05] <LordHoto> that said it would be sad to have LoL/EoB in ScummVM and all the other cool adventures in another project!
[17:05] <LordHoto> cool rpg games*
[17:05] <LordHoto> I am not sure why I wrote adventures there
[17:05] <wjp> nothing copy-paste couldn't fix
[17:05] <LordHoto> :-P
[17:05] <fuzzie> but I mean, there's cool mohawk educational games and stuff which have symbols and could be beautifully milestoned
[17:05] <LordHoto> sounds like a task fuzzie wants to mentor
[17:06] <fuzzie> well I was surprised by the complete invisibility of the students last year
[17:07] <fuzzie> as opposed to many other projects where students were actively around on IRC and lists and etc
[17:07] <fuzzie> obviously no replacement for mentoring :)
[17:07] <LordHoto> that reminds me: a (very short) task related to cine would be to extend the MT-32 MIDI output to work with General MIDI, the biggest obstacle here is that some sounds (I hope mostly sfx) might use custom MT-32 instruments though
[17:07] <LordHoto> not sure how much the chances are that we get that student to continue into looking for OS support though
[17:08] <LordHoto> I think digitall knows a bit about what stuff OS still misses and what could be done there
[17:08] <wjp> mentors should really kick students to be more visible
[17:08] <LordHoto> we should kick them out of gsoc so that they come here and flame? ;-)
[17:09] <wjp> it's far more rewarding for them if they get some feedback from people too
[17:09] <wjp> not that kind of kick :-)
[17:09] <joostp> easier said than done
[17:09] <wjp> yes, but should still be done
[17:09] <joostp> I tried many times in the past with 'my' students but could never change their habits
[17:09] <LordHoto> I can fully agree with joostp here, especially with out older tasks, not so many people were interested in them
[17:09] <LordHoto> but of course in case we have more fun tasks, that might change ;-)
[17:10] <joostp> yeah...
[17:14] <LordHoto> we have that the students should be available somewhere in our requirements
[17:15] <LordHoto> maybe we should change all that stuff so people think not so much as a burden but as something fun
[17:15] <fuzzie> well, seeing if students actually appear on IRC beforehand is a good sign
[17:15] <fuzzie> we already had at least one this year
[17:16] <LordHoto> had we?
[17:16] <fuzzie> and they were worrying about this mysterious workload percentage if I remember correctly..
[17:16] <fuzzie> ah yes somaen was wondering about the build system task
[17:17] <LordHoto> that's a task I would just like to disappear ;-)
[17:17] <LordHoto> at least when it's really about changing it to CMake, scons etc.
[17:17] <fuzzie> yes that is what we basically said
[17:17] <fuzzie> 16:16 <digitall> somaen: I think the general view on most of these things is that the reward is not worth the effort...
[17:22] <fuzzie> my view I think is mostly that I am opposed to any build system which can't actually track header dependencies
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[17:23] <fuzzie> but create_project sounds like a nice infrastructure task to play with which some might find fun
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[17:24] <LordHoto> building out of tree plugins, might be another idea, but not sure what's it worth anymore
[17:25] Action: fuzzie puts the ignoring-mouse-events hat on SylvainTV.
[17:28] <James|GlideM> Which OpenGL is the best to use on a desktop?
[17:30] <James|GlideM> And will it eventually when you go full screen [Alt+Enter] go to the native resolution of the screen?
[17:31] <fuzzie> i think the theory is that it will use your desktop resolution as long as you actually start scummvm with the opengl backend rather than switching to it?
[17:32] <James|GlideM> ok thanks for the info...
[17:32] <James|GlideM> Can a filter be applied along with it?
[17:32] <James|GlideM> Super2x etc
[17:32] <fuzzie> no
[17:33] <fuzzie> hm, that english toonstruck demo seems to actually work
[17:37] <James|GlideM> fuzzie, did you ever get time to see how easy it would be to get the Touche music working~?
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[17:46] <digitall> My ears were burning...
[17:48] <digitall> *cough*... All the Operation Stealth issues are listed here:
[17:48] <digitall> http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Cine/TODO
[17:51] <digitall> Any SCI GFX experts in the building?
[17:52] <digitall> If so, could they look at bug #3485194 ?
[17:53] <digitall> :/

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[18:18] <eriktorbjorn> Strangerke: (belated) I don't know if I've even played through the floppy version of Beneath a Steel Sky.
[18:19] <James|GlideM> eriktorbjorn, all sorted now ;)
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[23:26] <DrMcCoy> LordHoto: The pictures of you and wjp are pretty blurry/wiggly. Either I'm not good at keeping my hands still or the camera doesn't like bright lights or something
[23:26] <DrMcCoy> The few I shot in the car are all normal
[23:26] <LordHoto> it really was rather dark in there :-P
[23:26] <DrMcCoy> I mean the neon lights in the hallway
[23:27] <DrMcCoy> As opposed to the natural and darkened light inside a car
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[23:28] <LordHoto> well I have one good pic of you and two of wjp
[23:29] <LordHoto> so it's fine :-P
[23:29] <DrMcCoy> :P
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[23:35] <LordHoto> still need to check how good they actually are, didn't find time for that yet :-P
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[00:00] --- Wed Feb 8 2012