ScummVM IRC Log - 01 May 2012

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[07:17] <madmoose> mornin'
[07:21] <aquadran> morning
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[07:32] <Strangerke> hi guys
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[08:35] <tmx1> nice
[08:35] <tmx1> residualVM plays fandango perfectly
[08:38] <madmoose> Awesome
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[13:04] <hc> hi
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[14:33] <criezy> Hi
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[16:47] <Mataniko> 7th guest free on iOS and the Mac app store
[16:47] <Mataniko> for today
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[19:44] <Upth> Hmm. Is there anybody who can help me get an eclipse project setup for scummvm's android distro?
[19:44] <fuzzie> No-one's managd that yet, afaik.
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[19:45] <Upth> Lovely.
[19:45] <clone2727> As you can tell, most of us are not fans of IDE's
[19:45] <Upth> I find IDEs very helpful, myself
[19:46] <clone2727> I figured as much, otherwise you wouldn't be asking about Eclipse ;)
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[19:46] <Upth> they can significantly cut down my research times, particularly
[19:46] Nick change: Upth -> Upthorn
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[19:55] <wjp> Upthorn: what are you researching specifically for Android?
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[19:55] <Upthorn> the disabled autosave code
[19:56] <Upthorn> as it might answer some basic design questions on how anytime saving should work
[19:56] <Upthorn> and/or some questions on how it shouldn't :)
[19:58] <Upthorn> I think I may have eclipse working for source navigation, at least
[20:07] <wjp> I don't know how much you already thought and/or talked about things, but I think that most of the challenge will be platform-independent and engine-specific, right?
[20:08] <LordHoto> The disabled autosave code in Android is really just a different issue. It's because slot 0 can not be used for autosave in all engines.
[20:08] <LordHoto> cannot*
[20:10] <Upthorn> wjp: well, I was thinking that since anytime saving means the ability to save where the game doesn't support it
[20:11] <Upthorn> the "message" would have to come from the backend
[20:11] <Upthorn> to tell the engine to save
[20:11] <LordHoto> Yes, but the saving will have to be in the engine, right? ;-)
[20:11] <Upthorn> yes
[20:11] <LordHoto> Calling the engine's saveGameState is really rather trivial/easy.
[20:11] <Upthorn> presumably the android autosave code also comes from the backend
[20:12] <Upthorn> so I wanted to look at how it does that
[20:12] <LordHoto> But the problem with the Android implementation is a different one.
[20:12] <wjp> I would suggest starting with whatever platform is easiest for you to develop on
[20:12] <LordHoto> At least the problem which made us disable it.
[20:12] <Upthorn> right, the android implementation problem is that it always chooses slot 0
[20:12] <Upthorn> which frequently overwrites manual saves
[20:13] <LordHoto> It might do that for some engines, yes.
[20:13] <Upthorn> and I'm guessing from what lordhoto says
[20:13] <LordHoto> But that's really not that much related to your task I think.
[20:13] <Upthorn> that it just called saveGameState directly from the backend
[20:13] <Upthorn> which is definitely not going to be sufficient to my needs
[20:14] <Upthorn> so I'll drop the line of inquiry
[20:14] <LordHoto> I think one possible idea behind your task was to make saveGameState work in all/most situations. ;-)
[20:15] <wjp> it would definitely be nice to get all this sorted out, though, but, yes, it shouldn't be critical for your project
[20:16] <LordHoto> The easiest solution here would be to either add a special doAutosave() or query a slot which can be used for autosaves. But that's nothing you need to worry about right now.
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[20:37] <Upthorn> doQuickSave() is probably not a bad idea
[20:37] <Upthorn> the issue, then, is making enough information available to doQuickSave to ensure that all states can be handled
[20:39] <somaen> Actually, I'd love to hear what you learn on the way in that task, as Wintermute will need a new save-system anyhow
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[20:40] <clone2727> somaen: New save system? Why would you need a new save system?
[20:40] <somaen> The current approach there is a persistent-class-solution that basically saves the entire object-state of every game-object, by keeping track of all pointers in a hashmap
[20:40] <fuzzie> with STL everywhere!
[20:40] <somaen> clone2727: I'll atleast need to revamp the "hashmap of void*"-solution.
[20:40] <Upthorn> I can see why that would be undesirable
[20:41] <somaen> but the basic idea of id-s along with pointers is sound.
[20:42] <somaen> clone2727: I already discussed that point with you iirc, the problem boils down to the lack of a datatype that is the same size as a pointer.
[20:43] <clone2727> somaen: I thought you meant that you need ScummVM to have a new save system, not the engine
[20:43] <somaen> clone2727: Neh, no, the engine needs a new one.
[20:44] <somaen> So, if I can keep it in line with Upthorn's ideas, it would ease his work, and possibly mine too down the line.
[20:44] <Upthorn> how does the non-scummvm wintermute engine accomplish saving?
[20:45] <Upthorn> or is that not known?
[20:45] <somaen> Basically, all classes register their instance in a hashmap
[20:45] <Upthorn> so, the same way as you do?
[20:45] <somaen> iirc that map uses the object's pointer as a key
[20:45] <somaen> Upthorn: I currently have no savesystem
[20:45] <Upthorn> oh
[20:46] <somaen> and, I have the entire source-code of that engine.
[20:46] <Upthorn> so the hashmap of void * you were describing is their original solution
[20:46] <somaen> so, I've basically ripped out that stuff.
[20:46] <Upthorn> not the scummvm implementation
[20:46] <somaen> Upthorn: Indeed, and it works fine for 32-bit windows.
[20:46] <somaen> but keying on pointers isn't very portable.
[20:46] <Upthorn> I can see why that would cause porting issues
[20:47] Action: Strangerke summons Hkz
[20:47] <Upthorn> particularly to systems with rigid memory maps
[20:47] <somaen> indeed.
[20:47] <somaen> So, I'll have to come up with a more portable solution for that.
[20:48] <fuzzie> also kind of sad considering how long it's been since everyone concluded that was a dumb way of doing serialization :-)
[20:48] <somaen> Well, I won't be talking down the engine-code.
[20:48] <fuzzie> I haven't poked through the WME Lite code, only the WME code, which I am assuming is a lot more platform-speciifc.
[20:49] <somaen> Yup
[20:49] <somaen> But WME Lite was a quick-port afaik.
[20:49] <somaen> I.e. "strip out the nasty bits"
[20:49] <fuzzie> But the WME code looks fine.
[20:49] <somaen> It is, aside from a very interdependent include-system
[20:50] <Upthorn> include dependencies can be nasty
[20:50] <somaen> Which I already resolved most of, to avoid complete recompiles for every change.
[20:50] <fuzzie> I seem to remember that WME Lite has one header which sort of mostly includes the rest of the engine.
[20:50] <fuzzie> WME, even. And, ah yes, dcgf.h.
[20:50] <Upthorn> I hate working on projects like that
[20:50] <Upthorn> specifically, debugging can become nightmarish
[20:51] <somaen> Dunno what dcgf stands for
[20:51] <fuzzie> Well, it has #defines like #define DCGF_NAME "Wintermute Engine" in it.
[20:51] <somaen> But, Jan did a quite nice job of separating logical stuff, so the code is very clean to work of.
[20:51] <Upthorn> my suspicion would be a typo of dcfg
[20:51] <somaen> I suspect it's more or less the opposite of the codebase you've been looking at fuzzie. :P
[20:51] <Upthorn> perhaps #Define ConFiGuration
[20:52] <somaen> Upthorn: Makes sense
[20:52] <fuzzie> heh.
[20:52] <fuzzie> hint: think about the author's name :-)
[20:52] <Upthorn> but typoed to be Definition ConGiFuration
[20:52] <fuzzie> (or, rather, nickname)
[20:53] <Upthorn> mnemonic?

[20:53] <fuzzie> well, or rather, group name.
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[20:53] Action: fuzzie sulks.
[20:54] <Upthorn> all I know about wintermute is what I've learned from this conversation and the wikipedia article
[20:54] <fuzzie> yes, the thought was directed more at somaen :P
[20:55] <fuzzie> somaen: and, yes, indeed, it is spectacularly unlike AGS of course.
[20:55] <somaen> fuzzie: Well, tbh, I learned about the engine from aquadran last year, and haven't really looked much into it until this semester
[20:56] <fuzzie> Obviously you should all have wasted more of your lives poking through this stuff... :-)
[20:56] <fuzzie> Honestly I am spectacularly grateful for just having source code of any kind in these cases, though.
[20:56] <Upthorn> so, what is the name you are pointing to?
[20:56] <fuzzie> Upthorn: dead:code
[20:57] <somaen> that explains DC, but not GF
[20:57] <Upthorn> so dead code group fffffff?
[20:57] <fuzzie> I would guess Game File, but I'm not convinced.
[20:58] <somaen> And well, I wasted more than enough of my life poking through LA-games.
[20:58] <fuzzie> Ah, it's 'Games Framework'.
[20:59] <LordHoto> Upthorn: Since the engine contains all the engine's state, I don't know what else you want to make available to doQuickSave.
[20:59] <Upthorn> well, ideally quicksaving will be possible in the middle of cutscenes
[20:59] <fuzzie> If you're offering a magical solution to make all engine state available without difficulties to an engine function.. :-)
[20:59] <fuzzie> Step one: remove all instances of 'private:' and 'protected:' from the codebase?
[21:00] <LordHoto> fuzzie: Maybe we should make the method non static.
[21:00] <fuzzie> But then how would we add all the exciting abuses of casting g_engine, LordHoto?
[21:00] <Upthorn> hahaha
[21:00] <somaen> Upthorn: Quicksaving in the middle of movies etc might be a fun task
[21:01] <Upthorn> which basically means that doQuickSave needs to know which "mode" the engine is
[21:01] <Upthorn> *is in
[21:01] <LordHoto> Upthorn: More seriously, that's all on a per engine base.
[21:01] <LordHoto> Upthorn: So...
[21:01] <somaen> If movies are done threaded, without seekable codecs.
[21:01] <Upthorn> which probably doesn't yet have an indicator variable in most engines
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[21:01] <Upthorn> because there would be no need for one
[21:01] <LordHoto> Yeah, but you need to decide that per engine.
[21:02] <Upthorn> that is the sort of information I mean when I say that doQuickSave needs to be able to gather information about the engine state
[21:02] <somaen> Which btw might make that SeekableBink-patch interesting for ScummVM.
[21:02] <LordHoto> doQuickSave is just a wrapper for a saveGameState(kAutosaveSlotHere) anyway.
[21:02] <fuzzie> Well, except we don't have an autosave slot.
[21:02] <somaen> (the one that was denied since it didnt have a use-case)
[21:02] <LordHoto> fuzzie: That's why each engine needs to implement it ;-)
[21:02] <fuzzie> And probably the engine authors will mostly go insane if you try just patching saveGameState.
[21:03] <Upthorn> Oh, is doQuickSave already a thing?
[21:03] <LordHoto> No.
[21:03] <Upthorn> a wrapper for saveGameState(slotnum) is probably not sufficient
[21:03] <fuzzie> Since there's a lot of concern about original savegame compatibility etc.
[21:04] <Upthorn> since I would expect that saveGameState will only work in cases where it is already possible to save
[21:04] <Upthorn> and my job is to make saving possible in additional cases
[21:04] <fuzzie> Well, this was one of the questions on your proposal, I think from sev.
[21:05] <fuzzie> i.e. you have to consider whether you can just extend the existing savegames format or whether you actually have to build something separate for some engines.
[21:05] <Upthorn> can't I do both at the same time? :)
[21:05] <fuzzie> Not for an individual engine, no. :P
[21:05] <fuzzie> As discussed it might be something you'll have to work out when you actually try coding it.
[21:06] <Upthorn> what I mean is, have doQuickSave be a separate something which uses the current savegame format as a starting place
[21:07] <fuzzie> Right, but then you'll probably end up duplicating an awful lot of code unnecessarily, when you could often just simply extend the current savegame format in a lot of places.
[21:07] <Upthorn> Since they will (probably) save additional information that is totally unnecessary to normal saves
[21:07] <fuzzie> Which is one reason I suggested you start looking at what's actually missing in whichever engine you want to target first.
[21:08] <Upthorn> and part of the purpose is to make ScummVM more useful on mobile devices, which will tend to have significant filesystem space restrictions
[21:08] <Upthorn> I would want not to increase the size of savefiles that are already working
[21:09] <wjp> that sounds a bit like premature optimization
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[21:10] <fuzzie> And if you ended up deciding that's the right approach for some engines, then I imagine it might be best handled by adding checks inside the saving code for various engines anyway, which you could do at a later stage.
[21:11] <Upthorn> I have an idea for how to make it work without really making my task any more difficult
[21:12] <fuzzie> Well, I imagine the bigger challenge is producing code which will actually be merged.
[21:13] <fuzzie> There is a comment marked "MSVC6 FIX" in the SCUMM save/load code, I note.
[21:13] <fuzzie> This does not bode well.
[21:13] <Upthorn> the msvc6 fix isn't behavioral
[21:14] <fuzzie> No, it's just sort of a huge "no-one has seriously touched this code in a long, long time" warning.
[21:14] <Upthorn> Ah
[21:14] <Upthorn> Or the last person who touched the code didn't see any reason to break msvc6 compatibility?
[21:15] <fuzzie> We broke msvc6 compatibility a long time ago.
[21:16] <Upthorn> Ah.
[21:16] <fuzzie> It's a pre-standardization compiler, so it's, uh, interesting to support.
[21:16] <Upthorn> I see, yeah
[21:16] <fuzzie> Especially if you want to use crazy things like, say, template parameters.
[21:18] <fuzzie> I see from the raw.cpp comment that someone took the lazy way out for those bugs in the past. :-)
[21:18] <clone2727> Was about to say that raw.cpp could use a facelift
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[21:34] <LordHoto> Adding special save code just for doQuickSave seems really odd, yes. :-P
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[21:41] <fuzzie> Hm, teenagent's code is sort of .. evil.
[21:42] <fuzzie> "int id = res->dseg.get_byte(0xB4F3);" makes me think I'm reading dreamweb code.
[21:43] <Upthorn> it would be nice if those were made constants with meaningful names
[21:43] <fuzzie> Yes.
[21:43] <fuzzie> $ grep dseg engines/teenagent/*.cpp | grep 0x | wc -l
[21:43] <fuzzie> 59
[21:43] <fuzzie> ^- alas.
[21:44] <Upthorn> but this looks sort of like the result of reverse engineering by someone who didn't totally understand what was going on
[21:44] <fuzzie> So I'm thinking that probably isn't a good candidate for doing *anything* with.
[21:44] <Upthorn> and so just exactly reimplemented the steps
[21:45] <Upthorn> based on my own experience writing a proprietary format archive packer and extracter for use producing a translation patch of an independently produced Japanese windows game
[21:46] <sirlemonhead> should we be writing serialisation methods for all of our classes in new engines then?
[21:46] <sirlemonhead> to save out to a file for that save system?
[21:46] <fuzzie> Well, there's no *one* save system here.
[21:47] <fuzzie> If new engines can have their saving work in all situations when yes please please please. :-p
[21:47] <sirlemonhead> i'll keep it in mind
[21:48] <Upthorn> involving structures like "struct record {size_t file_offset; int unused[8]; size_t file_size;}"
[21:52] <fuzzie> Well it's kind of pointless to work out bits you don't use *at all*, of course. :)
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